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Education

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Original poster

School uniform and the sign of the cross.

90 replies

oldschool · 19/05/2004 08:02

My daughter's school is proposing a uniform change which would make a jumper with the school badge compulsory. The badge features a prominent crucifix.

It's a C of E voluntary aided school (so 40% of the places are 'open' places). There's been no genuine consultation about this, just a letter extolling the virtues of the new jumpers (hard-wearing, smart).

When I spoke to the head and one or two of the governors their knee-jerk reaction was that if people have chosen to send their children to a church school they shouldn't mind. But I feel uncomfortable at the thought of sending my daughter out with a crucifix emblazoned on her chest. I can imagine some people might have a conscientious objection to it.

What do you all think? Legal guidance is that we should be 'sensitive to religious and cultural differences' in setting a uniform.

OP posts:

Sonnet · 19/05/2004 11:00

Why would you choose to send your child to a "faith" school if you were a agnostic/athiest?

marialuisa · 19/05/2004 11:03

I think because in rural areas the village school is frequently CofE so parents just send them to the local school.

As you know from previous threads my problem is when atheist/agnostic parents fight tooth and nail to get their kids into faith schools and then are outraged by the amount of "religion" therein!

Jimjams · 19/05/2004 11:12

Nope can't see the problem (and I am atheist). My son's church school doesn't have a religious symbol on its badge, but there are plenty of crosses hanging around the school. How can a crucifix possibly be offensive? The local c of E school does have a crucifix and I hadn't even thought about it until today.

We have children of other religions attending my son's school- they often don't take part in assmeblies etc, but they dress in manner that reflext their religion and no-one is offended by that. Surely part of respecting other religions (which despite being atheist I try to do) is to accept their symbolism as well.

dinosaur · 19/05/2004 11:14

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Tortington · 19/05/2004 11:15

i think the sensitivity of the issue would depend on where you live. its amazing how unbelievingly stupid school goveners can be. for instance: if my children who belong to a family of practising catholics - were to walk in a certain area of oldham - wearing a cross would be the same as wearing a sign saying " please bash me severely over the head with the biggest object you have to hand" and visa versa - if a child had a crescent moon emblazoned ontheir jumper - in a certain area they too would get the same treatment.

there are these religeos/political sensativities in some areas of this country that councils play down for obvious reasons and many feel politically incorrect to mention.

if there is a safety issue attached to your concern then i would fight your corner, however if there is not. am afraid i agree with many others in saying that if you send your child to a faith school you know they are going to be subject to that faith.

Pidge · 19/05/2004 11:15

Sonnet - as I said below, I class myself as agnostic, but I will probably send my dd to a church school, because it will be our local school. She will be able to walk there without crossing a road, rather than hiking over busy London streets. I wish it wasn't a church school because I think children of all faiths should be educated together. I will not lie about my beliefs to get her in, the school has places for 'non-believers'.

Choosing a school is nearly always a compromise, I will inevitably have to go along with some the things I don't personally believe in when my daughter attends school. But I will continue arguing for an education system that doesn't encourage religious apartheid.

Sonnet · 19/05/2004 11:16

I agree Marialuisia. ( we've agreed on "schools" before!)
I suspected that the answer to my question would be because it was a better school!. That being the case they should either "like it or lump it"

Sonnet · 19/05/2004 11:21

You have the right attitude to me Pidge "I will inevitably have to go along with some the things I don't personally believe in when my daughter attends school."

And as for :"But I will continue arguing for an education system that doesn't encourage religious apartheid" - what we need are better "non-faith" state schools - I agree

Sonnet · 19/05/2004 11:22

You have the right attitude to me Pidge "I will inevitably have to go along with some the things I don't personally believe in when my daughter attends school."

And as for :"But I will continue arguing for an education system that doesn't encourage religious apartheid" - what we need are better "non-faith" state schools - I agree

Pidge · 19/05/2004 11:25

Sonnet - yes definitely there is a huge problem here that for whatever reason the faith schools are very successful (whether that's a result of their selection policies or whatever). We need a situation where a really good education is offered to ALL children at ALL schools. Fond hope!

Nutcracker · 19/05/2004 11:38

Right i haven't read the whole thread but my answer to the original question is ......

If i sent my kids to a C of E school then i would have no probs at all with the uniform you have described, as i would expect it really. Even if they weren't C of E.

Original poster

oldschool · 19/05/2004 13:00

Jimjams - it's not that the crucifix is offensive. But wearing it (as opposed to seeing others wearing it) might make you feel uncomfortably like a hypocrite, if you're not a Christian. Perhaps it's more uncomfortable if, like me, you're an ex-Christian.

OP posts:

secur · 19/05/2004 13:17

Message withdrawn

marialuisa · 19/05/2004 13:28

Really intrigued that so many agnostics/atheists are so upset by religious symbolism. To me the cross, bishop's hat etc are as meaningless as a Gap logo if you do not subscribe to the beliefs behind the symbol. Having a cross on your blazer cannot be likened to brain-washing, it's just a "thing". Wearing a cross everyday doesn't turn you into a christian (which I think was some bishop's point when he complained about the fashion for celebs to wear diamond crosses).

Jimjams · 19/05/2004 14:36

nope sorry still don't get it. I went through a very holy phase- now complete atheist, but the crucifix is still just a symbol of christianity. I don't have a problem with my children having that at school. I cannot see how wearing a cross is brainwashing anyone. I don't think the average c of e really sets out to brainwash- rather they teach morality within a christian context. I susepct that as a child grows peer pressure will provide far more brainwashing (and have the potential to do more damage) than a symbol of a cross on a school jumper.

secur · 19/05/2004 14:41

Message withdrawn

Fio2 · 19/05/2004 14:42

I went to a CofE school but there was no church pushing. In my day you got sent to the closest school and that was that

marialuisa · 19/05/2004 14:54

IME the school badge-expected behaviour thing tends to be used as a "you will not eat in the street, you will not swear in the street" type thing. Had plenty of "if you are wearing uniform you are representing the school" stuff but never "you are wearing school uniform, which incorporates a religious motto and therefore we expect you to behave in accordance with the teachings of this faith". TBH I don't think most kids think twice about what their school badge is or any underlying symbolism it might have.

Jimjams · 19/05/2004 15:08

secur you're not serious. Church schools are generally christian not evangelist. And ROFL at marialuisa's post. I had to go and check my son's uniform this morning as I wasn't even sure what his school symbol was (some sort of lion thing)!

All the schools I went to were pretty religious, one had communion every other Tuesday morning- everyone just moaned about how boring it was. There just wasn't any brainwashing going on.

Also I think that christianity is part of this culture and our morality is based on a judeo-christian view of the world. To see how different it can be to not have that go somewhere like Japan (where bringing a child into the world without a father is seen as a far far greater sin than abortion). We don't go to church as we are not believers, and we couldn't go with ds1 anyway. However I do think it is a relatively good thing for my children to learn the bible stories so they uinderstand the culture of this country. I'd like them to learn about otehr religions as well- religion is an interestng thing. But learning bible stories and learning morality doesn't equate to brainwashing, anymore than learning about evolution does.

frogs · 19/05/2004 15:09

But would you object to a child wearing a non-religious symbol such as a national flag? Would you object to your child having to recite the pledge of allegiance if you were living in the USA?

And surely most state schools give kids the option of wearing a plain cardigan or jumper instead of the school sweatshirt?

Jimjams · 19/05/2004 15:10

oh must be careful about how I phrase that- I really did mean that minus the judeo-christian morality you have a very different culture. I'm not saying one is better than the other (personally I think Japanese society has a lot going for it).

Jimjams · 19/05/2004 15:11

yes I think theyt do frogs- certainly we were told any plain jumper would do- we didn't have to have the one wth the symbol.

marialuisa · 19/05/2004 15:13

JimJams, i went to the sort of school that used the word "mufti" to mean clothing other than school uniform. Friend got caught smoking at lunch break and the head's phrase "I don't care if you want to bring about your own premature demise BUT you will not do it when you are wearing the uniform of this school. What if a journalist saw you?"

Jimjams · 19/05/2004 15:15

ROFL marialuisa- I think we went to the same school. We also had mufti days. And eating in the street whilst in school uniform was a very grave offence indeed. What on earth?

secur · 19/05/2004 15:15

Message withdrawn

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