School uniform and the sign of the cross.

[oldschool]

My daughter's school is proposing a uniform change which would make a jumper with the school badge compulsory. The badge features a prominent crucifix.

It's a C of E voluntary aided school (so 40% of the places are 'open' places). There's been no genuine consultation about this, just a letter extolling the virtues of the new jumpers (hard-wearing, smart).

When I spoke to the head and one or two of the governors their knee-jerk reaction was that if people have chosen to send their children to a church school they shouldn't mind. But I feel uncomfortable at the thought of sending my daughter out with a crucifix emblazoned on her chest. I can imagine some people might have a conscientious objection to it.

What do you all think? Legal guidance is that we should be 'sensitive to religious and cultural differences' in setting a uniform.

[marialuisa]

As for the US thing, I'd be uncomfortable and be quite happy for DD to just stand there in a respectful silence whilst the US kids did their thing. I think kids without faith tend to do this in assembly anyway. It's part of the culture and should be respected as such.

[marialuisa]

I don't know what the eating thing was about either jimJams, although for some unfathomable reason eating oranges in the street was the worst crime of all!

[Jimjams]

for us chewing gum!

[Freckle]

It is part of the National Curriculum these days to learn about other faiths. I know my boys have learnt about Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism. As they learn about these different faiths, they can at least compare them to the faith of the school, so they get a more balanced view.

Many of these faiths have fairly common basic tenets (many of which I would trust aetheists/agnostics to adhere to too - such as loving thy neighbour, etc. (sorry to all those with cr*p neighbours ) and really only differ in ways which probably wouldn't be apparent to a primary school age child anyway.

[hercules]

This is similar to a recent thread on lying to get your child into a faith school. I said there that i couldnt sdee how you could send yuour child to a school if you coulnt support the ethos. Is it really that surprising that they have to wear a cross on their uniform in a church school?

[oldschool]

Hercules and others - we can support the 'ethos' of the school. The good things about it are not exclusively Christian.

The alternative for us would be to send our daughter out of area. That didn't seem to be in her interests, as she's an only child whose friends will be particularly important to her.

I don't know of anything in the Christian ethos that would justify making the wearing of an explicitly Christian symbol compulsory for non-believers.

Is the uniform genuinely compulsory? Legal guidelines say the head can enforce it but that exclusion is not a reasonable sanction. Does anyone have any first-hand experience?

[SoupDragon]

I simply don't think it's a christian symbol though, it's the school badge. If they were forcing your DD to wear a crucifix on a chain, that would be unacceptable. Does that make sense?

[frogs]

IME experience, state schools don't get too arsey about the fine details of uniform. I do send my older two to school wearing cardigans or v-neck jumpers in the appropriate colour (rather than the school sweatshirts with the gurt big cross on), usually when I haven't been v. organised with the laundry (ie. quite often). No-one's ever said anything.

Having said that, if the school cuts up rough about it, I don't really think you will have much of a leg to stand on. Many religious schools are over-subscribed precisely because of their ethos, so I suspect if you make a big thing of it they will take the line that you either put up with it or go and find a school whose ethos you can fully support.

[rolymoly]

Why would you choose to send your child to a "faith" school if you were a agnostic/atheist? You might have no choice.

My sister, who is Jewish (as, obviously, I am too) lives in the catchment area of the local C of E school. She did not apply for a place there for her ds. In fact, having to wear a cross on school uniform was one of many reasons that she didn't want him to go there. She applied for places for him at two other local schools, but he's not in their catchment areas and didn't get a place at either of them. He's currently on the waiting list and at the moment it looks like he might not have a school to go to in September. What should they do?

I can see the argument that if you choose a Christian school for your child you have to accept it's Christianity, but that is assuming people have a choice, and at least in this case they don't.

[oldschool]

Soupdragon, it does make sense but that's just not the way I feel about it - to me the wearing of the cross is a statement of personal belief. That's why I wore it when I was a Christian and stopped wearing it when I no longer believed.

I strongly agree with Jimjams and others about the benefit to my daughter of learning about the Bible and Christianity - she needs this to understand the culture she lives in. I had that benefit and would not dream of denying it to her. But I would like her to learn a lot more about other religions and cultures, about tolerance and inclusiveness, than I ever did.

[Freckle]

But the non-wearing of a cross on a school badge isn't going to ensure this, is it?? And I thought that was the crux of your problem. As I said before, the National Curriculum contains more about other faiths than was ever taught when I, and I suspect you, were at school, so your daughter will get this diversity of faith/culture that you want.

If your local school is a church school and you do not believe (or belong to a different faith), you can state this on your application form.

[rolymoly]

Freckle, my sister did state that on the application form, and the result is still that her ds didn't get into either of the schools they applied to. The LEA only goes by catchment area. The CofE school is allowed to take religion into account in its admission decisions, but the non-religious schools aren't allowed to take NOT wanting to go to a religious school into account, if that makes sense.

[Freckle]

Was your sister offered a place at the CofE school? I'm sure if she appealed, her views would be taken into account, and another school offered to her. After all, the LEA is duty bound to provide her child with a place and, if the only place offered is totally unacceptable, they should sort out an alternative place.

[JJ]

We had a huge discussion on church schools last year -- it's my most favourite mumsnet discussion ever. The thread is here and if you search on my name, you'll find the church school discussion.

The C of E does consider its schools as outreach is the main thing. And some VA RC schools do not allow non-RC students. So there is an issue here. Especially as 20% of state schools are VA religious schools.

(the facts and figures are all on that thread -- it's very interesting to me for some reason!)

[rolymoly]

No, her son hasn't been offered a place there, because she didn't apply. (On the grounds that if she did apply she would have even less chance of getting her son into the non-CofE schools.) She has been told that if she does apply there now, he will be put 1st on the waiting list as they are in the catchment area, which means he will definitely get in. But she doesn't want to do that. Her county councillor advised her that the best way to get him into another school was to send him to the C of E one, then a few weeks into the first term get him assessed by a doctor who would say he was really unhappy there and had to move. I find this advice extraordinary, and she's not prepared to put her son through that. At the moment they're just waiting and hoping he gets a place via the waiting list at one of the other schools.

The point is, though, that the LEA's rulesand the very existence of state schools which are also church schoolsare what cause this problem in the first place. People like my sis shouldn't have to work out exceptional solutions--and shouldn't have to send their kids to non-local schools. I just don't think the state education system should have faith schools in it. It's bound to cause conflict between wanting to send your child to your local school and not wanting them indoctrinated in another religion/ any religion. (And learning about religion is not the same thing as praying together, imo.)

[tigermoth]

haven't read all this. I am not sensitive to cross wearing, so don't see a problem, but can see how in some areas of the country, it could be a bad idea.

However, for those who are sensitive to cross wearing, I think there's a difference if the cross is on a piece of essential school uniform - or not. If school badges only appear on blazers, and the wearing of these isn't compulsary, then you don't have to wear the cross if you don't want to. So I can see how the thought of wearing a prominent cross on a jumper (essential school kit) could be objectionable to some. But as I said, I personally am fine about it.

[oldschool]

The crux of my problem is that the uniform change is symptomatic of an intolerant attitude on the part of the school.

I think if they genuinely wanted to make other faiths welcome they would need to be more imaginative and more sensitive.

Their Christian ethos must be fragile if it can be threatened by a few plain jumpers.

[robinw]

message withdrawn

[Freckle]

I'm not sure that the wearing of school uniform at primary level is compulsory. Nor can the school insist that parents purchase specific items, such as the jumper with the badge. At the boys' school, many children wear a plain grey sweatshirt instead of the specific school one. Same with the yellow ochre polo shirts. Many children turn up in plain ones bought in the high street, rather than the school ones with the logo.

I suspec therefore it is open to parents who object to the cross to purchase plain jumpers. I'm sure the school won't object and I doubt whether the associated church would either.

[Jimjams]

rolymoly- I don;t think by sending your child to a c of e school you do have to accept the christianity bit. Certainly there are children in my son's school who are muslim and they don not do any of the christian. Of course this means that they miss out on things like nativity plays and a lot of the xmas build up. The situation is slightly different as there are other non-church shcools available and the parents have actually choses the church school although chosen to opt out of the christian bit.

I think she should check the jumper bit as well- I'm sure most state schools let you wear the plain alternative.

[Sonnet]

Rolymoly can see your point re your sister and also that some Cof E school's are the "local" school so choice dosn't come into it.

If I was in that situaltion and I genuinly didn't choose to send my children to a "faith" school then I would write to the head/governors saying I hadn't chosen a Cof E eduation for my child/ren and that being the case they would wear a plain Sweatshirt.
I do feel very strongly though about non-faith parents choosing a faith school and then objecting to symbols of that faith in everyday school life.

[Sonnet]

The situatiom that Jim-Jams describes below I do object to.
Despite being an RC my children attend a CofE school through OUR choice.
I accept the Cof E faith they are being taught, the saying of the "our Father" in a slightly different way to the RC way etc etc Because I CHOUSE this school and do not agree that I canopt out of the "bits" I may not quite like - IYSWIM....

[Twinkie]

I really don;t think funding comes into the question here if you sent your daughter to achurch school you must agree that it is probably quite common for them to have religeous emblems on uniforms.

DD goes to our local catholic shcool and I am impressed with what they are teaching her more to do with morals and how she must treat others than the whole religeous aspect of what she is being taught - she can say the lords prayer and the hail mary though - not bad for a 3 year old!! And I don;t think they are brainwashing her more teaching her a set of beliefs and values that by my choosing to send her to this school have agreed that they do - and she isn;t brainwashed at home merely brought up with very much the same values of caring for others and treating others how she would like to be treated - in fact DP rolls his eyes everytime she sings 'We have a king and his name is Jesus'!!

Is it acyually a cross or a crucifix as well.

[Jimjams]

I don't know sonnet I can see what you are saying, but there are other reasons for chidren to "opt out". For example my son doesn't attend assembly as there's not way he could manage it- so I quite like the fact there are other kids also not attending in his classroom. I know its slightly different though.

[tigermoth]

Just throwing in a general question: What about schools that are called 'st xxx's holy cross school' or such like? If the school has an unmistakenly christian name, yet takes children from all backgrounds is that objectionable too?

I mean the title could appear on all sorts of school kit and forms and the child can hardly lie about where they study.