School uniform and the sign of the cross.

[oldschool]

My daughter's school is proposing a uniform change which would make a jumper with the school badge compulsory. The badge features a prominent crucifix.

It's a C of E voluntary aided school (so 40% of the places are 'open' places). There's been no genuine consultation about this, just a letter extolling the virtues of the new jumpers (hard-wearing, smart).

When I spoke to the head and one or two of the governors their knee-jerk reaction was that if people have chosen to send their children to a church school they shouldn't mind. But I feel uncomfortable at the thought of sending my daughter out with a crucifix emblazoned on her chest. I can imagine some people might have a conscientious objection to it.

What do you all think? Legal guidance is that we should be 'sensitive to religious and cultural differences' in setting a uniform.

[Blu]

My brother lives in a rural area, and all the state schools within 15 miles are CofE. He is fine with this, and my SIL is a practising Christian, so there is no more confusion in their schooling than there is at home...I digress - but I think that the issue of choice and state funding IS an issue here.

From a very early age, when I enjoyed Sunday School and my grandfathers sermons in the Methodist Church, I have personally found crucifxes alarming and frightening imagery. I do not mean to be at all offensive to christians, and understand that it is used as a symbol encompassing many aspects of sacrifice etc. But personally, I still cannot get over the image of the cross as an instrument of torture and death. For me it is as if the picture were of an electric chair or a gallows. The cross was, after all, the contemporary equivalent.

If I had no practical choice over a local state education, this would certainly be one more compromise for me!

[Sonnet]

JimJam you misunderstand me. Your son not going to assembely is nothing to do with opting out of the "faith" bits is it.
If you choose a "faith" school then you shouldn't choose to opt out of the Faith bits you don't like/want.
If you have no choice in the matter then IMO you can opt out if you want to.

[rolymoly]

Sonnet, I'm sure you're right that my nephew wouldn't be forced to wear the cross on his school uniform. Nor would he be forced to attend assembly; he could be withdrawn. (In fact there are a number of muslim children at the school who have an islamic study group that happens during assembly--my sis says that if she ends up having to send her ds to the school she will send him there ...). But even with these opt-out possibilities, I still don't think it's right that this is the local state school. If you opt out you are very much marked out as different. If all the other kids have the cross on their sweatshirt and you don't, and you don't go to assembly, and you don't participate in various other important bits of the school day, how does that affect your relationship with the other children in your school?

I know my mum had a problem with all this when we were kids. We went to the local state school which was not a faith school, but was nevertheless quite religious: close your eyes and pray during assembly, recite the Lord's Prayer etc. She decided not to withdraw us from assembly because she didn't want to marginalise us. I remember always feeling very split during assembly. As someone else said, the person leading assembly is someone who you are taught to respect, teaching you songs etc whose words your parents tell you are wrong/ offensive/ whatever. It's a peculiar message for a child.

Meanwhile, I was gritting my teeth from late October to December last year as dd1 (then 2) sings 'Baby Jesus, Mother Mary love you ...', as taught to her at her state-funded, supposedly non-religiousand in all other ways very goodnursery.

[frogs]

rolymoly -- is it really a peculiar message for a child? Surely if you tell children 'Some people believe this but we don't, you can make up your mind yourself when you're bigger' that's actually a better preparation for life than only letting them mix with others who share their parents' take on life?

Certainly for my kids attending a very mixed school with lots of people who do/say all sorts of things that I don't like has helped them develop a much more mature and critical attitude than would be the case in a more homogenous environment.

[Jimjams]

rolymoly- I thought (although could be wrong, but something I read in the TES recenlty) that all state schools - whether faith or not- have to have a broadly christian assembly.

It is an ofsted requirement that all children attend assembly aparently so I don't know how my sons school gets round that.

[rolymoly]

You're right, frogs, and I don't think I expressed myself very clearly before. Of course, it's good for children to know that some people believe some things, others believe other things, and they can decide for themselves. The problem with Christianity in this country, and in particular in the education system here, is that it is not just one set of beliefs that is equal among all others, but that it is so very dominant. What was hard for me as a child, I think, was feeling that everyone apart from me was included in the Christianity of the school. It wasn't a case of some people believe x, we don't, but rather, everyone you know believes x, and we don't. I'm sure that this wasn't really truethere were undoubtedly lots of atheist/agnostic families in the school, but the way the school made Christianity a part of the school's sense of itself (even though, as I said before, it was not designated a religious school), made that fact invisible. As a result, I felt like a peculiar misfit. I'm sure it would have been better if the school had had a more diverse group of students. We lived in a very white area with very few JewsI think there was one other Jewish girl in the primary school I went to.

JimjamsIt's true that all schools are required to have a 'broadly Christian act of worship' (or something like thatcorrect me those who know better), but not, I don't think, that all children attend. And lots of schools in some areas simply disobey this injunction. It is noted in ofsted reports but nothing is done about it. In fact, for some parents (like me) it would be a positive thing to find in an ofsted report!

[rolymoly]

Sorry Jimjams, I misread your message--thought you were saying that all children had to go to a broadly Christian assembly, which you obviously didn't.

[Rhubarb]

I agree wholeheartedly with what Custy said.

[Bart]

I was a teacher at a catholic secondary school. Other faiths sent their children to us in pref to other state (non faith) schools because they couldnt imagine an education that didn`t have God in it somewhere. These children were often the most careful about adhering to the uniform code (large cross and all). Their parents often spoke of the pride they and their children had in the school. From the catholic point of view the other faith groups enhanced and enriched our learning environment.

[robinw]

message withdrawn

[Twinkie]

To be honest I think the cross and to an extent the crucifix are used as symbols of fashion just as much as religious symbols these days (hoo ha kicked up by the church a while ago over this) and so I don't think having one on a uniform is such a problem anymore - well unless you live in Oldham as was pointed out earlier!!

Unless it was something very sinister or very against my principles (which would mean I would not have sent DD to the school she goes to) I wouldn't make a fuss or make her any different tot he rest of her peers - children especially girls can be very cruel about anything that makes others different (to the extent that most of the girls in DDs class now have the same hairstyle - this is at 3 years old too!!) and I would want DD to be as happy as possible.

[Crunchie]

Rolymoly I really sympathise with your sister. I am also jewish and like you felt the 'odd one out' at school. I didn't understand the Trinty and jesus and all of that, so I used not to sing in assembly. However as a child I don't remember overtly 'christian' assemblys, more a general mention of god IYKWIM.

However my dd aged 5 goes to our local school - no overt symbols, but it is a large village school - and it does worry me when she is obviously subject to 'sermons' by the head at assembley. She comes home and tells me what Jesus did, and before easter all about the crucifiction and whatever. I found this a little disturbing as I had not really assessed her religious education (actually I have been vv lazy), and she was telling me that I was wrong as I didn't believe in Jesus!!! It is at the forfront of my mind at the mo and I know I have to explain far more and actually create a more 'jewish' household to give her a better sense of her background. This is hard as dh is Christian!! Oh well one more worrying thing!

[rolymoly]

Crunchie, that is exactly the kind of thing I worry is going to happen all through my dds' educationeven though there's no chance they'll go to a faith school. So I am now also thinking about how to emphasize Jewish things at home. Tricky given my mostly secular upbringing, the fact that I am the only Jewish parent, and that I don't want to become actively religiousI don't want to of attend synagogue, for instance. How are you going about it? I've been trying to seek out Jewish friends and have the occasional Friday night with them, and dd1 (3) is very keen on lighting candles and really enjoyed my family's seder ...

(Sorry, I know this is a diversion of the thread.)

[Crunchie]

I'll start a new thread on this one, as I am sure there are a few more of us