Is there any evidence that learning Latin improves educational outcomes?

[tethersend]

...Or is it a case of mistaking correlation for causation?

I've noticed a trend to include Latin on the curriculum amongst some academies and free schools- I wondered if there was a sound evidence base for doing so?

Maybe people think it has... Erm, some value in itself? Seems so bizarre that it would / should only be included if it improves outcomes in other subjects.

Undoubtedly one of the benefits of Latin is the way it feeds into an understanding of many modern languages, and the cultural and literary background and grounding it provides, but sometimes it's good enough just to learn stuff for its own sake.

sleepybean
I was delighted that DD got the chance to study Latin - as it will help her later in life with nomeclature at work.
I'm gutted that DS was not able to take it for exactly the same reason.

I did Latin at school and hated it.
DH did not
now we both use botanical and medical Latin on a daily basis
and when I worked for an Italian company, a smattering of Latin mixed with French let me muddle through in all of the Romance languages.

BUT
Most of the state schools doing it now are definitely at the dog whistle end of the scale

Teenandtween - it depends what her strengths are. Usually I would recommend serious grammar cramming. Because you can get away with having fairly shaky grammar at GCSE, but not at AS or A2.

Countess, I do indeed use minimus! Pick away

My Latin teacher was one of the authors of Ecce Romani! Funnily enough we used that course as well!! We did all giggle at the boy called Sextus of course!

My children are the third generation in our family to use the Cambridge Latin Course. The way the grammar is taught in CLC seems a bit haphazard, but they enjoy the plot development.

Unless your child wants to study Medicine, there is no need to learn Latin, this is the waste of time, in my opinion, it does not help with other subjects. Moreover, learning Latin will take so much time, that your child might not be able to catch up with other disciplines... If you want him/her to be bilingual, choose another language, which is not dead like Latin, but widely spoken. At least, it will benefit your child in his/her future career.

I can without a doubt say that latin did not help me at all..... I did 3 years and hated every lesson. i was also pretty rubbish at French .
The oral side I was fab at.
I then moved to Italy and learnt Italian without a book in sight and no Latin never even entered into the process. I can now look at Latin and see the Italian in it. When i met my old latin teacher who wore her hair in a bun like the pics in Ecco Romane and told her I was a qualified translator she diddn't believe it....

GingerCub, you're way off beam with your remarks about Latin taking too much time from everything else. Generally speaking, students who do Latin at school by choice are bright and hard-working. You tell them to jump and they say 'How high?'. They fit it all in and along the way learn how to organise and prioritise their work.

One doesn't have to make a choice between learning a modern language and an ancient one. They both have a great deal to offer, for all the obvious and well-known reasons mentioned in many of the posts on this thread. It is not a waste of time to study an ancient language simply because nobody speaks it any more. People who can understand Latin have access to some of the greatest literature ever written, not to mention getting an insight into one of the most powerful nations/empires we've ever had on Earth.

... And thus a sense of how the modern world began to fit together in the way we know it now.

And a realisation that the ethnic and racial delineations that we currently adhere to did not always exist in the same form.

You learn about power and subjugation - from a particular viewpoint - and, being the kind of child Gasp0 has described, you begin to ask questions about some of the things you think you know.

And you can be a total nuisance in pedant's corner for ever afterwards (because even if your own spelling has turned to crap you have a beady eye for everyone else's mistakes ... )

I think Latin is a major waste of time. And I say that as someone who did Latin to 18: it was my most important subject in my bac.

I think MFL are hugely important and give far more insight into language that Latin ever can.

It's a bit like sport I think, to get better at a MFL you have to spend more time practising MFLs.
As I said up thread Latin (when well taught) at a reasonably advanced level appeals most to those who are good at logic reasoning and enjoy the puzzle plus the stories and culture of the language. It is more about learning for its own sake I guess than pragmatic use
Poor you Bonsoir , miserable to have spent so much time on a subject that was a waste of for you.

I at least know better than to subject my own DC to Latin and have focused our resources and their time on MFL instead.

I should also perhaps add that I was exceptionally good at Latin! It's more with hindsight that I think it was a waste of time - about as useful as crossword puzzles/sudoku/computer games.

DH & I both did Latin o level and our 3 dcs have all been taught Latin, DS for 5 years & dds for 3 years. They have all chosen not to take it at gcse, preferring a creative subject rather than 11 straight academic subjects. Dds both chose to study 2 mfls, DS 1 mfl & computer science which is more relevant to him. The local free school keeps going on about Latin & I agree that it's considered as a marker for being middle class.

Cue wails of frustration from all those who have now realised how much time they have wasted doing puzzles .
Bonsoir one advantage with the English system is that DCs when given the opportunity of studying various subjects can then choose themselves to continue or drop them after a basic introduction to them. I agree that no DC should continue with a subject that lthey are unlikely to enjoy even if they are exceptionally good at it as in your example.

Oh I enjoyed it! Enjoyment doesn't, unfortunately, guarantee any real academic/intellectual purpose.

I hated German but have (a) retained it (b) applied it in RL.

I at least know better than to subject my own DC to Latin

My older two both chose Latin as one of their options. I am not going to stand in the way of them studying something they enjoy and/or find interesting. It doesn't need to be 'useful'.

So do you think utility in academics is more important than enjoyment?
That might restrict the curriculum

Bonsoir makes an interesting point though I am not sure how you can predict future usefulness. I only had basic Latin but I do think it sharpened my mental skills which may have fed into my present cognitive ability in work. I was ok at German as well as my native languages but actually it has not been used but I would not have been able to predict that at school and am still pleased I did it.

Sorry Thefirstof cross posted with you.

I'm not sure finite resources should be allocated to things DC find enjoyable and easy (eg Latin) but with dubious purpose.

All of the analytical language skills that Latin is purported to develop are developed to a far greater extent through proper (and this is rarely available in the UK) teaching of MFL.

Believe me Bonsoir there is / was not much proper interesting Latin or MFL teaching in the French schools that I and my family have experienced. Nothing like the same level as my German, Dutch and Scandinavians friends and colleagues tell me they had for MFLs and are the living proof of.
Good MFL teaching must depend on the approach and probably is better in schools with an international outlook.

Ah - now, you see Bonsoir you make a great argument for the continued teaching of Latin in the UK - it's the only opportunity for children here to gain those analytical skills!

I haven't argued anywhere that the approach is better in French schools

I didn't go to a French school myself and I had excellent MFL opportunities - which is (partly) why I feel qualified to have an opinion on Latin vs. MFL.