Is there any evidence that learning Latin improves educational outcomes?

[tethersend]

...Or is it a case of mistaking correlation for causation?

I've noticed a trend to include Latin on the curriculum amongst some academies and free schools- I wondered if there was a sound evidence base for doing so?

It is a good point that PP have made about the way MFL are taught. It was pretty awful as far as I remember. When I moved to the US at 16 I had to switch languages and because they taught grammar alongside vocabulary and useful phrases I learned as much in a year as I did in four back in Scotland.

I perhaps am so unambiguously in favour because Latin was not expected or even encouraged at my school and really was down to the individual efforts of a single teacher. I remember all the other teachers and even my parents being a bit when I picked it for standard grade. The idea that it is enforced is so different to my experience.

My DC would say yes, their educational outcomes were improved, but perhaps not for the appropriate pedagogical reasons. Latin and Greek allow you to avoid other subjects that will take up much more time and tiresome effort. Along with a couple of MFL, they can completely edge out any need for the usual humanities, at least in schools confident enough not to pressure pupils into the Eng Bacc.
As an aside, the ones that didn't do Spanish would spend half an hour on Spanish saying it helped no end with their Latin. Apparently more than French or German. Can an expert confirm whether this is true?

Loving that quote about 'Mandarin being the new Latin'. So true.

Wow, lots of replies!

Whilst I can see the benefits of learning grammar, of the love of the subject etc., I really wanted to know if there were any empirical studies which assessed its impact on educational outcomes, whether that be at GCSE, A level, degree or beyond. Or, if there have been any studies of its impact on student engagement levels?

Whilst I understand the argument that it enriches learning in other subjects, and the questioning of why there needs to be evidence of its impact in order to include it in the curriculum, I am just curious as to why Latin would be chosen as a subject over, say, critical thinking or indeed Mandarin...

DS1 is in the middle of the Latin GCSE course at a state school. There are only 17 of them taking it. It has given him an understanding of grammar, which he is now applying to learning German. It has helped his vocabulary; if he doesn't know the meaning of an English word, he can often work it out from the Latin. Other than that, there isn't much benefit other than enjoying learning it for its own sake. His interest in ancient Roman culture has motivated him to keep going when it seems hard.

It would be difficult to find studies that removed other factors. Perhaps someone should take some sets of twins and teach Latin to one twin in each set.

Surely the foundation that Latin gives you is the same that any language with a similar grammar (i.e. German, Russian) would give you. I don't think there's anything particularly unique about Latin that makes it any better a foundation than an MFL.

I did Latin (compulsory at my private school) and I appreciate it for the ability to read Church inscriptions but not much else.

Re: medieval Latin - I was under the impression this was actually quite different from Latin as taught in schools in several ways? So an A level in Latin would probably not qualify you to work as an archivist.

You can start classical languages ab initio at many universities, so it's not a case of being permanently locked out if you don't do it at secondary school. Where's the ancient Greek love?

But Latin is a foundation for both grammar and vocabulary because several languages are descended from it.

I'm absolutely loving the quote about it being the dog whistle for the middle classes. I salute the poster's DH who came up with that phrase

I think that Latin has the advantage of providing a logic type puzzle (once past the basics) when translating plus as said above a really sound foundation for the grammar and roots of so much European vocabulary plus an entry into some interesting history stories.
Those pupils who are more inclined to mathematics and science seem actually to do rather well in Latin so it is not just a linguistic subject

Alyosha, medieval Latin has its own vocabulary, but you need to have the grammar basics first and then add on the vocab and the palaeography. So Latin A level on its own wouldn't qualify you to work as an archivist, but you'd need to be around at least O level/GCSE standard to get very far with medieval documents

(My palaeography is pretty good, and my medieval Latin vocab is not bad, but without the grammar I can't read any but the most basic Latin documents, because I can't put the individual words together to make sense of the whole.)

Belatedly , rabbitstew. Your post articulated what I really always want to say about teaching MFL. Here's to more imperfect subjunctives and fewer 'Three ice creams please' .

Can I sit with you, holmes and rabbitstew? (as a despairing mfl teacher...)

Lancelottie we haven't got onto Minimus 2 yet. I am making him write down vocab and grammar and do the exercises because otherwise it won't stick.

Tinklylittlelaugh how interesting about your dd. I wonder if that's why ds finds it soothing - it's so lovely and tidy and follows rules properly which makes him feel secure.
I've just done a 90 minute session with him after he got sent home today and it really does feel like he's had therapy of some kind! I wonder if we can get him reciting verbs like a mantra to calm himself down in the classroom.

Ah, Ecce Romani!

Ecce! In pictura est puella, nomine Cornelia. Cornelia est puella romana quae in Italia habitat. Etiam in pictura est altera puella, nomine Flavia. Flavia in villa vicina habitat.

It has been 26 years since I studied Ecce Romani 1, chapter 1. Why the fuckity-fuck can I quote it (and not remember where the bloody hell I put my USB cable)?

I did latin and classical greek GCSE - my school gave the option of German or Greek in (now) Y9. I chose greek because of the whole "you can study german at any point in the future, this will be your only opportunity to learn ancient greek" - which is true.

Classics definitely helped me in other languages - I can read Spanish and Italian without having had any lessons - and it's definitely helped in terms of English grammar and logic etc (let's not forget that he who laughs last is possibly speaking Latin). It also helped at A Level English Lit, as I had half a clue about the allegory and what TS Eliot was referring to in the Wasteland.

What a lovely blast from the past, emwithme! We did Ecce Romani too. And as for that 'why do I remember this and not something useful?' moment - yes, indeed. I remember vividly the lesson where my Latin teacher went through the vocabulary list telling us which words we should learn for homework. 'Glis, gliris - a dormouse. No need to learn that one', she said. Too late, it's gone in deep and I've never got rid of it!

DD did Latin GCSE at a State Comp, but the teacher retired and was not replaced.
It is not expected that the lack of that subject will impact on the outcomes in other subjects.
DS was not offered it. I still expect him to do well in life.

. Actually, I'm such a despairing MFL teacher that I only do private tutoring and adult education these days (though that's more due to being a despairing teacher than specifically an MFL one - but that's a whole other thread...)

While there's some MFL teachers around...
Should my DD happen to pass her English Lang GCSE (fingers crossed), she's going to do Spanish AS. If she was bored in the summer, what should she do to prepare?

Yes I can quote the first bit of Ecce Romani book 1 too! Our teacher was on the committee that wrote it. I have to say that I got an A at O Grade despite knowing barely any Latin grammar.

I suppose Latin is also immensely important as the language of the educated across Europe for several centuries, so more useful than Ancient Greek or Sanskrit for accessing culture & history.

However several languages (i.e. Russian) are related to many more European languages - the entire Slavic language group comes to mind...

I'm shocked that anyone would try and teach any language without grammar - how on earth would you teach Russian or German without learning about cases??? Surely it's just not possible?

Total aside to TeenAndTween - the difficulty is where to start?

Some links to explore:
www.donquijote.org/spanishlanguage/
www.bbc.co.uk/languages/spanish/
bscw.rediris.es/pub/bscw.cgi/330464?client_size=1366x667
www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aprender+espanol
personal.colby.edu/~bknelson/SLC/index.php

Films? Box sets? Sky used to show "Gran Hotel" - friends swore by it. A good Spanish grammar book - with answers in the back: try Amazon or a big Bookshop. A visit to Grant & Cutler's in London? A weekend break in Spain? Find a local summer school and set up an exchange with an international student?

She probably has access to online courses from school - and now has the time to wander through those and enjoy them. Have fun.

TeenandTween
Grammar, grammar and more grammar - that was the huge jump from GCSE to AS for all the MFL students at PSC

AYear & Talkin Thanks. I'll bookmark those links.