Fiona Millar on grammar schools in the Grauniad

[samsonagonistes]

This article here is doing my head in on a number of levels, not because I necessarily disagree with it, but mainly because I don't know what I think and I don't know enough about some of the research/thinking behind it to come to a conclusion on my own. So I'd be really grateful for any thoughts and/or pointers.

She's working from the premise that grammar schools are inherently bad, and that this is a clear thing for all right thinking left wing people. Now, when I read MN, I can see that plenty of parents want grammar schools and are fighting to get into them. So I end up feeling about this pretty much as I do about UKIP, that the point is not only/necessarily to condemn them outright, but what would be more useful would be to find out why people feel this way and what is actually going on for them right now. So what's the gap between theory and experience here and why?

Also, she seems to think that the main argument against grammar schools is that they are not engines of social equality. Now, this may be one argument against them, but surely the point of school is to deliver education, with equality of opportunity in achieving that. Lots of other things do not deliver social equality - like private schools, expensive clothes and London house prices to name but a few - but that's never part of the argument against them.

Also - and I am aware that this is going to be controversial - but an argument against their social mobility is that they take reduced numbers on FSM. Now, for this argument to be valid, we would have to assume that IQ is spread absolutely evenly throughout the population.* I would like this to be the case, but has this theory ever been tested/proven?

• and yes I am aware about the cultural relativity of testing, etc etc, but then schools are also culturally relative in that they privilege theater and art over other activities and there are so many knots in this problem that it's hard to disentangle.

Sunshield

Our council house dwelling neighbour (single mum, 5 kids) has shown extraordinary commitment to her kids education. The eldest got a full bursary at a well known English boarding school. The others are being supported to get into grammars or bursaries. I think this is a rarity, but it does demonstrate that commitment and aspiration can have a potentially life changing effect for a very few.

Until the state system is "so good" that selective schools become nothing more than a foolish luxury, this issue isn't going away.

The solution is not to bash grammar schools (4%) or private schools (7%) or faith schools (30%?) but to make every comp as good as the best of those.

Hmm makes me laugh that helping and tutoring your DC to achieve level 5s and 6s in order to scoop up the top set places on entry to comp is deemed ok alongside buying up houses in the catchments for the best schools but helping and tutoring for the 11+ is not ok.

We do not live in a grammar school area but have decent, average comprehensives. My three eldest have been through the local comp. DS1 is at a very good university, DD1 is going in September, (unconditional place), DD2 is currently doing GCSEs and predicted As and A*s across the board. I really fail to see that they would have achieved more academically at a grammar.

The positive of the comp is that their friendship groups include kids from all sorts of backgrounds and academic abilities. For example, DD2 is pretty bright, her best friend is less academic, but they found each other through a shared passion for art and drama. My kids can talk to anyone, whatever their socioeconomic group, and despite being pretty fortunate financially, they have a grasp of disadvantage and poverty that would put most Tory ministers to shame.

Tinkly

The grasp of wider society is something that must come from home not just school. It is a valid issue with elite schools and it might be fair to assume that many parents at these schools aren't doing a great and committed job of ensuring their kids understand their privileged position.

MN164
I agree home should play it's part. But we live in a "naice" village. If we had sent our kids off to private school, (which was an option) they would be living their lives in a bubble.

Actually, thinking about it, I realise that some people seem to aspire to raising their kids in a bubble.

Thanks Tinkly for that really nice picture you painted of your children's social circle at school, it sounds just what I want for my DD.

Ideologically I would prefer good comps for everyone. But in the real world, where a lottery system would be insane in rural areas, you would have selection by house price.

TI be honest, those parents who care would move, pray or pay, just like they may pay for tutoring- and you can tutor your own child for very little £, so in some ways grammar schools are fairer than catchment schools!

Speaking from a grammar area, the most able 10% are well served- likely to pass with v little preparation, and less likely to have their needs met at a standard comp. The less academic 50% also have some great high schools. It's the second band that can have it tricky- do you push? Push too hard and risk overwhelming? Potentially risk coasting at a high school? Or will they thrive there as a big fish in a small pond? Comps are much better in that respect.

I do feel it is very unfair to bash people preparing their dc for the 11 + when they are in a grammar area and basically have no choice!

My goodness, I'm sure the children at ds's grammar school in essex which serves a massively diverse East London community have as much- and probably more awareness of disadvantage and poverty than children attending leafy comps in Surrey, Berkshire and Hampshire etc...The idea that only highly privileged kids are at grammar schools might be true in Kent but it is not universally true.

'The idea that only highly privileged kids are at grammar schools might be true in Kent but it is not universally true.'

Have you ever been to Ramsgate JFR ?

John Farleys Ruskin

I think evidence shows that there is a very low take up of grammar school places by kids on fsm, even if they do serve a diverse East London community.

And a kid from an impoverished background who has had the drive, or more likely, whose family has had the drive, to get to the grammar, is a very different kettle of fish to one who just rolls up to the local comp.

DD1 is good friends with a girl of similar academic ability. The girl lives on a very rough housing estate. The mother is a single parent who has been battling cancer for many years. The house is pretty dirty, the mum drinks and smokes. They eat a lot of takeaway, they have a big telly. Despite being pretty bright, DD's friend has never really grasped the value of education. So while DD is off to Uni, her friend has dropped out of A levels. She works part time in a shop, she cares for her mum.

DD adores her friend's mum. She thinks it is very sad the way her friend's life has gone, but she understands the reasons why. The crappy political arguments made about big tellies and the deserving/undeserving poor make her blood boil. It's horrible that she has had to learn these hard facts about life, but I'm glad she has. She has got that from her comp.

She might go to uni later on though Tinkly she probably just wants to look after her mum?

I am rooting for this girl, and the morbidly obese boy from earlier on in the thread. There's always time to study. I went to college when I was 18 and spent most of the time drinking, sleeping and listening to Bauhaus. Sometimes when you're older and have had a boring job, you appreciate it more.

I hope she will go when her Mum passes away Sarf. It will be much more difficult for her without the straightforward A level route though, plus she has younger siblings. We have been counting down the days to her eighteenth birthday; now when her mum dies she will get to keep her council house tenancy, we weren't sure what would've happened if she'd been 17.

The really frustrating thing is that DD's friend wanted to teach. How much empathy and understanding would she be able to bring to kids who turn up a bit dirty, with a crappy packed lunch and their homework half done?

Just to let you know that Fiona Millar is chair of governors at William Ellis School in Camden. It offers up to 10 music places a year. Selection by musical academic selection. Don't know how she, a grammar school educated girl, can complain about academic selection.

Btw, this whole thread is inane. It is only a matter of a couple of decades before they are dumbed down to become comprehensives. My former grammar school from the 70s became a comprehensive when I got to Y9. By 1990 it became bog standard and has stayed that way since.

Is there a grammar school near ramsgate? I thought the grammar schools in Kent were mostly in 'posh' areas.

I agree there is low take up of children on fsm- that's an issue. But everyone not on fsm is not privileged mc. This is something labour especially don't seem to get at all- aspirational wc who don't have a hope in hell of going private or moving to that half million grand house for that top comp in bath, quite like grammar schools too.

Ah Tinkly she'll do it - and when she does you have to pm me. She might even get a bursary? My college has loads of bursaries and as a middle aged white woman I am classed as a minority group apparently! Haven't applied though so may not be so easy.
If you have a local uni where she can study and live at home that would be ideal. I'm happy that you and your daughter are looking out for her, poor thing. Losing her mum at that age :(
The human spirit is strong.

Ah yes JRF, my alma mater, very exclusive! This is why in discussions about selective education, I always bring it up! Ramsgate/Thanet is a very deprived area and the school there isn't posh and all the students don't go to Oxbridge. It may be different now, but I moved away years ago.

Ah now I've recently heard of Thanet!

So it's a grammar school in a pretty wc area? it must be similar to ours across the water!

Yes - but without the same decent transport links that Essex has. High unemployment and no local industry, and not within commuting distance of London. It does however have lovely sandy beaches.

Could you expand on that camel?

jFR- out of interest, what % of children on FSM are there at your dd's grammar?

Ethos?
DC are at a comp which is neither leafy nor in a premium house price area, and which has equal catchments of social and private housing and 23% FSM. It has a very strong academic ethos in the top sets. And in the middle sets too, as it happens.
It has a fantastic orchestra etc etc. and it offers this education to those who were late developers, those who struggle with Languages can nevertheless be in top high achieving maths sets, and summer born kids who struggled at 11 can fly and be pushed up the sets as they mature. Those who had a bad attitude but hAvr received good pastoral support can fulfill themselves by moving up sets, those who got off to a flying start or were tutored before SATS and are now needing a bit more time to complete curriculum modules can move down a set. That's the beauty of a well run comp.

Keep working on the comps rather than retreat to a system which creates as many problems as it solves and cuts off as many opportunities as it potentially opens up.

Is there a grammar school near ramsgate? I thought the grammar schools in Kent were mostly in 'posh' areas.

ROFL
thats Essex not Kent. Essex isn't a grammar county, it only has 8 in small pockets. There are 40 in Kent. Some in "posh" areas, some not.

I don't think all the Essex grammar schools are in posh areas either!