Fiona Millar on grammar schools in the Grauniad

[samsonagonistes]

This article here is doing my head in on a number of levels, not because I necessarily disagree with it, but mainly because I don't know what I think and I don't know enough about some of the research/thinking behind it to come to a conclusion on my own. So I'd be really grateful for any thoughts and/or pointers.

She's working from the premise that grammar schools are inherently bad, and that this is a clear thing for all right thinking left wing people. Now, when I read MN, I can see that plenty of parents want grammar schools and are fighting to get into them. So I end up feeling about this pretty much as I do about UKIP, that the point is not only/necessarily to condemn them outright, but what would be more useful would be to find out why people feel this way and what is actually going on for them right now. So what's the gap between theory and experience here and why?

Also, she seems to think that the main argument against grammar schools is that they are not engines of social equality. Now, this may be one argument against them, but surely the point of school is to deliver education, with equality of opportunity in achieving that. Lots of other things do not deliver social equality - like private schools, expensive clothes and London house prices to name but a few - but that's never part of the argument against them.

Also - and I am aware that this is going to be controversial - but an argument against their social mobility is that they take reduced numbers on FSM. Now, for this argument to be valid, we would have to assume that IQ is spread absolutely evenly throughout the population.* I would like this to be the case, but has this theory ever been tested/proven?

• and yes I am aware about the cultural relativity of testing, etc etc, but then schools are also culturally relative in that they privilege theater and art over other activities and there are so many knots in this problem that it's hard to disentangle.

FT points = We give pupils 8 points for an A* in any full GCSE down to 1 point for a G, and add up the scores they get in English, maths and their three best other subjects.

Word you're absolutely correct. I think I mentioned somewhere up thread that our school has almost exactly the same number of pupils on FSM as score high L5s in the 'catchment'.

Does that mean that proportionally more of the FSM children with high level 5s get spaces at the school than non-FSM children with high level 5s, then? Or is the school actually relatively unselective, accepting virtually every child with a high level 5? Presumably there is an entrance exam? What form does it take?

Lots of questions rabbit! I've answered one I think, with the numbers of FSM correlating to the number of those scoring high L5s, which of course begs the question about primary provision but nevertheless indicates that the grammar isn't doing badly in its entry, in the sense that high L5s is the standard whatever the parental income might be. Other schools locally will have more pupils on FSM but then they almost certainly won't have scored high L5s. There's a huge issue there, but beyond sending the grammar teachers out to local primaries for outreach, which has been going on for years, there's not that much that the grammar itself can do to tackle that problem. Someone else needs to though.

On the whole the largest number of children tend to come from the state primary which is down the road, a couple of miles away, but there have been changes over the years that my DC have been there because obviously schools can go up and down in terms of general performance, so it's not set in stone. Also, that primary is relatively large, so absolute numbers don't tell the whole story. There are masses of tiny schools in the area and historically some have been pretty successful and others not, but a year group in one of those might consist of only three or four pupils. DD4 was in a cohort of six and that was quite large for the school.

The Council has cut back transport hugely in recent years. Mine get transport as we live close but not too close, though very few live in that magic ring around the school. It's another obvious issue. The school is relatively very poorly funded but it's developed a bursary system to help with transport costs for sixth formers, all of whom who have to pay once they hit Y12. Any pupil on FSM can use their pupil premium to cover up to half the annual cost of transport too. The government could choose to pay transport costs if it wanted to, but it's shown no signs of wanting to do so thus far.

I think none of the four local comps would have 20% of their intake from the private sector but given what I said about the choice locally (I tracked back Ofsteds when you assumed earlier that we lived in a sea of leafy, high performing comps), that's hardly surprising. Most parents in that income category would choose to go to the nearest day independents which are all 'affordable' (! - the usually GDST type level of fee) and one in particular is very good. Also, you've selected the spike year - also not surprising :)

The demographic of the area is very mixed, which the school reflects, though not as perfectly as it should . It might well if more of those less well off kids scored the necessary levels in SATS and no doubt it will increasingly as the effect of the new tests bites.

The extra love and nuture thing is really, really offensive HayFeverHell.

Sorry, cross post rabbit. Those qualifying for FSM get priority.

So does getting a high level 5 automatically get you a place, or are there other criteria?

The school has a multiple choice verbal reasoning and maths paper and an in-house English paper. The next round will be the new CEM tests developed by Durham, along with lots of other grammars.

Also, and this is largely to Theoretical, I'm just wondering how many of these grammar school heads you've met, or read about, and how much have you read of anything they've written? Because I'd stake my house on the fact that they're almost to a man or woman strongly opposed to entrenched privilege and all the negative things you attribute to grammars. They're pretty strong characters I'd have thought, on the whole.

Bertie there's the entrance test, obviously. But you've got a good shot at passing it in this area with high L5s. And if the number of FSMers at the school correlates with the number of FSMers scoring high L5s then that makes sense, since priority for FSMers is a new thing.

"The school has a multiple choice verbal reasoning and maths paper and an in-house English paper."

But if you've got a level 5/6 you're pretty much a shoo-in? So what does a non super selective grammar ask for?

Molio - your SS sounds much more equitable than those around here. May I ask if the primary that sends most children from down the road reflects the demographic of the area? Do you have a feel for the representation of different demographics coming from the local state primary to the SS?

I would agree Molio re grammar heads. I've met and talked to a few, most recently the head of the SS where DS is going. There's no blame being attributed.

That primary very much represents the demographic yes. I'd say that particular school was spot on.

Bertie the school isn't oversubscribed in the sense that the number it needs are those passing the test which is pretty much all the high L5s who apply. Other schools, esp the London ones, may be different but the fact remains that it keeps coming up top or near the top in the wretched league tables so it's doing something ok.

Thanks, Molio, that is helpful to get a better picture of the school. How big is the school? And I'm presuming it's mixed, not single sex, if it's the only super selective in the area?? Btw, I don't know where you assumed I thought your area was a sea of leafy, well performing comps!

Interestingly, I read an article somewhere suggesting that the first year of the new 11 plus testing in Buckinghamshire has resulted in an even higher proportion of privately educated children passing in comparison to their state educated peers, so the test introduced to try and make things more "fair" has had the opposite effect to the one intended!

I presume, if you are a mainly non-selective part of the country that the entrance exam for your children's school is an opt-in one, rather than (as is the case in Buckinghamshire) an opt-out one? You have intimated that you think this results in a hard job for the school trying to persuade less privileged children, or children who are not obviously confident high-flyers (or who don't have ambitious parents behind them), to consider taking the exam in the first place. Is that right? What do you think holds some people back? Is it the tendency of the middle classes to whip up a frenzy of anxiety about the need for tutors to get you a place in any selective school? Or a misguided belief that only geniuses need apply? Or antipathy towards selective education? Or the misguided belief that if you aren't from a certain background, you won't fit in if you go there? Or just fear of failure? Or fear of tales of eating disorders, old fashioned, dull teaching techniques and excessive quantities of homework?

Do any of your children go to a different school in the area? If so, how does it actually compare in terms of ethos and ambition for the children?

Oh, or are some people simply put off by the idea of travelling a long way to a school when they could go to one closer to their own house, and unconvinced of the benefit of going on a long journey?

(Obviously, I know you can't read minds, but you must have an idea as to why some people don't bother to sit the exam in the first place!).

I'm very confused. If I understand you properly, this is a superselective school that if you're at high level 5 you're pretty likely to get in- don't you have very able children from miles away clamouring for places? Presumably a high scorer from further away gets priorority over a lower score closer in?

Yes Bertie that child would get priority unless the nearer lower scoring child was eligible for first consideration under the criteria. But you need to factor the cost of transport in, and the deterrence of travelling time and the social considerations of living a long way from your school. Socially, being at a community school is very different. Better in many respects.

So this is what amounts to an undersubscribed superselective grammar school? Wow- don't tell anyone or you'll be trampled in the rush................

But doesn't that make it just a grammar school, if they don't have to look at scores?

for a non Kent perspective as some have asked. Lincolnshire has a number of GS the majority of which are not SSs. It is not however a wholly selective county - there are no GS for example in Lincoln which is by far the largest town and population centre in the county. Likewise there are no grammar schools in Stamford. Also seem to be very few prep schools and relatively little tutoring.

We opted to move to Lincolnshire not only because it has GSs but because, where we are at least, the alternative is pretty good and certainly nothing like the "secondary moderns" described in Kent. Triple science is fairly common and the one where we live is the lead school in the area for MFLs. Our very local grammars are single sex, and therefore there is a proportions of DCs who exceed the 11+ threshold who prefer, or their parents prefer, a co-ed school. Very anecdotal info only but around 20% of DCs at DS3s primary who could have gone to one of the grammars in the town chose not to.

But... and there are some fairly big buts not that obesity is as big an issue here as some places the picture in more deprived coastal towns which also have grammars may be quite different. Likewise somewhere like Bourne is a single co-ed grammar so may well fully cream off the top 25%. There are also a fair proportion of places taken by incomers from over the border - maybe 20% at the two GS where we are. Interestingly also the SSs are consistently outperformed by a number of the standard GSs.

Attainment links can be found here by districts within Lincolnshire - a crude measure but one I could at least easily find

www.research-lincs.org.uk/jsna-Educational-Attainment-KS4.aspx

That's v interesting boys3, I didn't know about Lincoln or Stamford, and also interesting that your alternatives sound good.

Why do you think there is little tutoring? Is it because the alternative is good?

We thought of relocating to Lincolnshire boys3 but I couldn't find what looked like a decent primary school (on paper anyway).

theo I do wonder whether in part if it is due to demand. Although Lincolnshire is 50% bigger than Kent it has barley half the population, where we are at least (eg the small town we live in) there is no real 11+ frenzy, and I think limited demand for tutors and as a result few offering the service. That is not to say that some do, but I have the genuine impression that it really is a minority. I would stress though that whilst we have a great alternative, that is probably not the case everywhere in Lincs.

As an aside at sixth form there are very close links between our three local schools (2 GS and 1 non GS) - shared teaching, subject centres of excellence kind of stuff.

pickled we've not had any primary school concerns. We moved when DS1 had just finished year 5 and he went to a small village school with less than 100 pupils. DS3 on the other hand went to the primary literally round the corner and thrived there. The nice thing is that although he now has some new friends he still walks to school with those who he was at primary with and now go to a mix off all three secondary schools in the town.

Maybe everything is just more pleasant and uncompetitive generally, schoolwise, outside the Home Counties.

In NI the working class kids that go for GS places are thought of as snobby by their 'non aspirational' peers (and their parents). There is a kind of inverse snobbery that can mean some kids feel ostracised by their own communities for daring to look outside them for an opportunity to have a decent education.

You need a pretty tough skin if you're from a working class area and sporting a GS uniform. These are often quite poncey, a bit like private school uniforms in England.