Fiona Millar on grammar schools in the Grauniad

[samsonagonistes]

This article here is doing my head in on a number of levels, not because I necessarily disagree with it, but mainly because I don't know what I think and I don't know enough about some of the research/thinking behind it to come to a conclusion on my own. So I'd be really grateful for any thoughts and/or pointers.

She's working from the premise that grammar schools are inherently bad, and that this is a clear thing for all right thinking left wing people. Now, when I read MN, I can see that plenty of parents want grammar schools and are fighting to get into them. So I end up feeling about this pretty much as I do about UKIP, that the point is not only/necessarily to condemn them outright, but what would be more useful would be to find out why people feel this way and what is actually going on for them right now. So what's the gap between theory and experience here and why?

Also, she seems to think that the main argument against grammar schools is that they are not engines of social equality. Now, this may be one argument against them, but surely the point of school is to deliver education, with equality of opportunity in achieving that. Lots of other things do not deliver social equality - like private schools, expensive clothes and London house prices to name but a few - but that's never part of the argument against them.

Also - and I am aware that this is going to be controversial - but an argument against their social mobility is that they take reduced numbers on FSM. Now, for this argument to be valid, we would have to assume that IQ is spread absolutely evenly throughout the population.* I would like this to be the case, but has this theory ever been tested/proven?

• and yes I am aware about the cultural relativity of testing, etc etc, but then schools are also culturally relative in that they privilege theater and art over other activities and there are so many knots in this problem that it's hard to disentangle.

tabulahrasa
I'm interested to know how 'intelligence' is measured here. Maybe the working class child just learnt how to sit still and how to pass a test?

All makes me a bit uneasy.

"Maybe the working class child just learnt how to sit still and how to pass a test?"

Entirely possible... There's a school of thought that says that passing an IQ test with a high score means you're good at taking IQ tests, lol.

A fleeting thought- might the segregation of the orchestra playing mc 11 year olds into a grammar leave the top set of the comp a more appealing place for sarfeast's boy? Without all the quinoa eating aga wanting museum visiting *ankers? There are a lot of them at some grammar schools!

• replace with b or w as appropriate!

Exactly!

I was 'intelligent' enough to pass the 11+ but the minor public school ethos of my grammar school didn't suit me at all

A fleeting thought- might the segregation of the orchestra playing mc 11 year olds into a grammar leave the top set of the comp a more appealing place for sarfeast's boy? Without all the quinoa eating aga wanting museum visiting *ankers? There are a lot of them at some grammar schools!

• replace with b or w as appropriate!"

Very possibly. But the fact that there's a grammar school means that there isn't a comprehensive school for him on be in top -or indeed any other-set of.

Well Tanaqui I don't really want my Harry segregated from anyone. (I've grown very fond of him) Harry is very good at football so hopefully the MC boys and him will bond over that. I am very happy for the clever kids go be in a top set for some subjects, but not to get a completely separate and better funded school than Harry does.

I want all schools to be brilliantly funded and staffed by well paid and well trained teachers, that way hopefully all our kids will reach their potential.

Right, a confession about my kids bog standard comp, that I am perfectly happy with. It is a C of E school. It is undersubscribed, so you don't need to church to get in, (and most people don't). It is also the town centre comp, and the nearest one for the less affluent population. But it would be disingenuous of me to pretend that there would not be a high proportion of engaged parents.

I also think it has a very caring pastoral ethos; bullying is dealt with very firmly, (often nipped in the bud by the kids themselves), and there is a very high proportion of "out" gay and lesbian kids, and it is seen as incredibly uncool and crass to be in any way intolerant. My kids have been a bit shocked by the experiences of friends in other schools.

So maybe we should be putting more focus on the pastoral side? Perhaps that is the way to engage kids?

How big is it tinkly

I like Harry!

Most grammar schools are less well state funded than their neighbouring high schools- although some do raise large amounts of money elsewhere.

ahh I have to share this with you...

'This film was made to celebrate the 10th anniversary of Myers Grove Comprehensive School in Sheffield. At that time, the school was home to 1800 pupils, and this film highlights the different lessons and activities in which they are involved including a student fashion show.'

www.yorkshirefilmarchive.com/film/ten-years-myers-grove-school-film

We're all very proud of him Tanaqui

Grammar schools are only less
well funded than high schools because they don't attract
any Pupil Premium. There's a
simple solution to that.....

I've been in the library at college for the last two days working on some essays (always hard) so this thread has been a real treat to dip in and out of. No bile or vitriol, just some very interesting views and anecdotes.
Thanks everyone!
Maybe I'll pop a copy in the post to the PM!

And what are you going to do with Harry? We can't just leave him here for the weekend you know...

It is 1500, plus a small, relatively unpopular sixth form. We have a couple of excellent, selective six form colleges which cream off the most able. The sixth form is basically open entry.

And some schools get "double money", pupil premium plus money for being in a deprived area. Plus there is no national funding formula (yet), which means some grammar schools receive up to 50 % less money per pupil. I'm not sure how that's fair!

I think a weekend in the education section of mumsnet may have a 'transformative' effect on Harry's educational outcomes. By Monday morning he'll be on the waiting list for 'super selective' (whatever that is). Hopefully he won't forget where he came from though.

Harry is my mother in tat separation sense. She still had some contact with relatives but basically moved class and away from them. I am sure her life was hugely improved by state grammar and what she learned and becoming a teacher, sending her children to fee paying schools etc but it was certainly a difference and at her funeral when we met some of her relatives for the first time the difference in just 2 generations within the family was massive - all nice people in the two groups but very different. I don't think it was a loss for her and she felt relieved to move out of poverty, but it has that impact if your school makes you change class. Comps perhaps don't? Although gosh if you moved from a poor area of the NE where my family were from down to some comp in Surrey that would be a move from working class to middle class. There is no good reason why most schools with the best exam results are in the South at all if IQ is evenly spread, yet they are. I suppose that might just reflect Labour North abandoned selective schools in 1970 and others bits of the country kept them may be?

LotusLight - you are getting carried away. There is a very small minority of grammars anywhere really, and I am sure Accrington Grammar, for example, is in Manchester or somewhere....

But I am honestly seriously frightened now. My DC is in the orchestra at a 'bog standard' (aka very well performing inner city comp) ...will that be the end of us as a family? Or will the number of kids saying 'haitch' and addressing each other as 'bruh' guarantee our family unity?

Please re-assure me.......

There are some fine schools in the NE if my PGCE studies are to be trusted... who was the genius who dreamed up accelerated learning? CBA to go look for the book, but you don't have to be in the North to experience white w-c disillusion. Rural areas of Cornwall have it in spades. DH came home today and informed me that on his grim industrial estate (sorry, business park) where there are two tiny specialist analytical labs, the staff employed are more than 80% East European. Surely over 10 years, a comprehensive with more than 300 per year group should be able to produce enough good science graduates to fill those jobs locally, or thereabouts?

Hakluyt there is absolutely not a simple solution to that. Because the fact is not that grammars aren't taking in enough FSM kids for some easy-to-remedy issue, such as whim. They are in fact taking in almost exactly the number of FSM kids in their area who score high L5s across the board at the end of Y6. Well that's the case for my kids' school anyhow, which is a superselective (but still has a de facto 'catchment', albeit large). And my understanding is that this is the case for other grammars too though I don't know the detail for each and every other grammar, obviously. That is a much larger issue of course and neither caused by the grammars nor able to be remedied by the grammars but it's the thing we don't hear about really. We hear a lot about grammars not taking many FSM kids compared to their neighbouring schools, but far too little about why those kids score relatively much lower than the non FSM kids in the area. That's the first issue to address.

Factors driving outcomes

Work ethic - 50%
Parenting and wealth - 40%
School type - 10%

That's what I think (and is therefore fact)

In fact, further to the above, a very close friend's son (very smart, very MC, borderline Aspergers) did a fortnight's internship with one lab a year ago. The employer refused him a reference, saying he never put his phone down and wouldn't engage with the other analysts, so unemployable as part of a business venture.