Every time DS does anything new, people always go "well, of course that's no real indication of future ability"... so what is?

[Anchovy]

Just interested really. DS is 5 and in Reception and I have absolutely no idea in relative terms whether he is bright or not, or how he compares to his peers. He could literally be a year ahead or a year behind of the developmental average for all I know. I don't even know what the developmental average is! Sometimes he does or says things which seem to me to be astonishingly clever, other times he says and does things which are - frankly - quite the opposite. Obviously, this is all just part of 5 year old life, but of course I have no idea what other 5 year olds are like.

It doesn't actually matter to me, because after all he's my boy and I love him, but I'm quite interested in what any teachers think are key signs of intelligence in small children. I'm guessing its not age at which they learn to walk, for example, although I have heard age at which they learn to speak and rapid language development. Is it how quickly they learn to read? Is it how they can discuss stories they have had read to them? Is it how thoroughly and constantly they pick their nose ?

I've got our first real open evening in 2 weeks time, so I guess I'm going to find out something then, but I expect the school is far too nice to say anything specific. Guess I'm going to have to resort to looking in his classmates reading report books when they come round for tea...

You're quite right the school won't tell you what you want to know. Nor will looking in your son's classmates' reading report books. If your son were utterly brilliant or the opposite you probably would know about it. I really wouldn't worry. (But then as an ex six-year-old remedial with a PhD I would say that, wouldn't I )

Just to be clear I wouldn't actually ever look in DS's mates' reading books but I can remember a thread where the morals of doing this were discussed and at the time I thought it was A Bad Thing but I suppose I can sort of see why the mother might of wanted to...

oops - "might have" wanted to...

If he wins a Nobel Prize at any point that's a fairly hopeful sign...

There were 5 of us that stuck around after our post natal group and it was very interesting to see the different stages of development - who talked, walked etc first.

If it's any help, DS1 was about the last to walk out of his peers and talked quite late too but now (at nearly 5) I know he reads, writes and does numbers better than the rest of them.

but I read very early too and then wasted the rest of my school life and did pretty badly in any exam I ever took so I'm not sure if it's any indication at all!

anchovy, I know what you mean - it's easy to get those 'what to expect at one year old' books but it sort of tails off by five, doesn't it!

I sometimes wonder about my ds. He turned 4 in august. He is very articulate and has been from an early age but he is just not anywhere with reading or writing yet. He doesn't have the pencil control to even do a straight line - still scribbling basically. I think the only word he recognises is his name!

Yet his understanding of concepts and his memory for things he finds interesting, amazes me. He piped up the other day about the inner, and outer planets, and told me which ones are the 'gas giants', etc etc.....

I think in my heart I know he is bright enough, and I try not to get drawn down the path of what is normal, what other kids are doing etc...ds is doing what comes naturally to HIM and I'm trying to accept that and not look at what he does in terms of other people.

Who says 'that's no indication...'? Pretty begrudging response. I'd go with inviting classmates home and sneaking a look at their books if I were you. Or you could be a boring grown-up and look at something like the BBC parenting site - think there's child development stuff on there. Or Ofsted probably has something about what they expect in different years at school.

Hi Anchovy!

I know this doesn't answer your question, but it was DD1's Y1 open evening a couple of weeks ago and we asked something along the following lines:

"We really don't want to know where DD1 is relative to the rest of her class, as that's clearly fairly irrelevant , but we get the impression that she is doing pretty much exactly what you would expect of an average 5yo and we want to be sure that we're not wide of the mark."

We thought it was a reasonable enough question and in fact her teacher didn't answer that question but launched into her class position - started off the term in the middle of the class and now moving up. One thing the teacher did mention is that at the beginning of YR1 there is often a very broad spectrum of academic achievements but, aside from the inevitable outliers at either end, by the end the class is a much more homogenous group. So, unless DS1 is extreme in either direction, it may be genuinely too early to tell.

If it helps at all, DD1 has one ferociously bright friend. Aside from being able to read chapter books by the second term of Reception and chatting like an adult, she always behaves towards me as if I'm a rather slow-witted creature who needs supportive and gentle handling!

I know exactly what you mean, Anchovy. There are often threads on here about reading, for example, and people frequently post stuff like: "Of course early reading has nothing to do with intelligence" or "Speaking early is no indication of how intelligent a child is." I'm not sure how these posters are so certain.

From what I've read and my experience, neither of those things is quite true - just because you don't speak or read early doesn't mean you are not intelligent, but children who speak and read well early are usually pretty bright.

I once read somewhere that the age of learning to read was not as important as the speed of learning to read as a predictor of ability - so the child who goes from nothing to fluent in a few months is probably quite able. Have no idea if this is true, though.

And you are right, the school will probably not say anything specific unless your DS is very far ahead or very far behind in any subject. A very bright child in DS2's class got full marks in a recent assessment test and all the teacher said was that he was "towards the top"!

I was a very early reader, reading fluently at pre-school age and I remember having a reading age that went off the scale when I was in junior school.

My bro was a late reader, who really struggled, and took ages - prob years - to become fluent.

We're both intelligent people (I would say )

I am trying to remember this and not get obsessive about what ds does or doesn't do at school!

I think teachers are anxious not to label children too early. So far at my dd's school hard work and good behaviour seems to be rewarded far more than academic achievment, but then she's only 6 and I'm happy with that. Also you could argue that good behaviour and the ability to concentrate are the building blocks of future academic achievement.

And I agree with ssu. My younger brother wasn't nearly as good at reading as me, still has terrible handwriting and got worse exam results than me ( though not awful).
However he earns 3x as much as me and has an interesting and powerful job!

the age differences (and pure developmental differences) in reception make such a difference (and to a certain extent in yr1 too) - it would be nonsensical to compare the abilities of the children when some have just turned 4 and can barely wipe their bum whereas some are 5 and can read and write (I know it's not only age based but you know what I mean!).

I think wrt parents' evening, you want to know if they are happy, keen to learn and working at a level the teacher expects of them.

As they get further up the school, you get many more clues as to how they are doing (dd is in yr2 now and I have a pretty good idea at what she does well and what she's not really interested in!).

blue, that's the same with my bro - he has the most glam, fascinating life that so makes mine look dull and pedestrian. He really is the poster boy for it not actually mattering what happens at school

Glad to hear it SSU
Actually I love having a succesful brother. He is great at bailing me out at the end of the month
(Sorry gone rather off the subject matter)

In terms of things being an indication of future ability, DS1 seemed a really advanced toddler - 24 piece puzzles before 2, numbers and colours well before 2, sight reading words from 2.

But, at 8, though he is clearly a bright boy, he is not an academic superstar and would certainly not be singled out by his teachers as the most able child in the class, even though, when he was 2, everyone commented on his precocity.

DS2 was a much less noticeably advanced toddler, though he was unusually articulate from early on, but he is progressing very rapidly at school. Mind you, Y1 is too early to tell....

Issymum, am loving the idea of you being patronised by a 5yo! Dd1 had a friend like that as well -- I still find her slightly scary.

I'm not sure position in class is irrelevant, though, as it affects how the child will see themselves relative to their peers and relative to the work being set. I'd hate to have a child who was permanently somewhere near the bottom would make me wonder whether I'd chosen the right school. And having one who is far and away the best is not great either. Somewhere just above the middle seems to be ideal good enough to feel they're doing well, but enough higher-achieving children to make them feel they need to put in a bit of effort. That's ds's position, and he's loving school in a way dd1 never did. It's been quite a revelation to me.

Best indicator of 'ability' is socio economic background and by default parents interest and priority placed on eduction.
I know you think you are in fact discussing some innate underlying ability, but honestly, as some one who spends alot of times testing IQ's of children, it's nurture not nature every time.

Thanks for these thoughts. I think it is right that if DS was at one extreme end of the ability spectrum either way we would have heard about it -he's clearly not. I agree that the differences in the "normal" ability spectrum at this stage seem huge - I think that I just don't really have any idea which end he's veering towards!

DS is a phenomonally good-natured and happy little boy who enjoys school - it just feel odd not being able to work out whether he is enjoying it because he is coasting and finding it all quite easy or because he is just a cheerful duffer and is unfazed by the difficulties of it all! The signs are that he is - probably - doing fine at school which I suspect has a lot to do with the fact that he was in the nursery at the same school last year and is one of the oldest in the class, so has two advantages which probably really help out at this stage. My idle wonderings were whether there was anything that showed whether he was bright or not when these advantages flattened out.

Its just a bit funny going to an open evening when you genuinely no idea of what you are going to be told!

ooo how interesting tinker!

I guess that is alot to do with success in life of people like my bro and blue's bro, who found some academic stuff really hard...but they had parents who obviously supported them and placed a priority on their future....

It means that those of us posting/worrying on here are at least interested in our kids progress at school, meaning they will do ok in the end

On the whole Sunny I would say so.

Oviously not all the time, (before inundated with angry posts from interested parents of struggling children)but as a general trend/best inducator, yep.

Love the idea of a 5 yo coasting
Seriously your son sounds like he is doing great anchovy, a kid that loves school is not going to go far wrong. Am sure he's doing great

Bit too many greats in that sentence but you get the idea

Thanks Bluejelly .

I used the word "coasting" as DS does not seem to believe in expending extra effort where not required!

he does sound lovely anchovy

honestly, it's such a relief when they are happy at school. Dd had one bad term of yr 1 and it was just so awful for all of us so I always think it is lovely if children are happy and coasting at school!