Following on from "privileged education" thread how can my future state ed dd's get the "natural confidence"?

[indiana7]

I really enjoyed the "privileged ed" thread & another similar one on secondary ed forum. I have 2 dd's & they will definilty be state educated due to our lack of finances I am a sahm & although dh earns very good money his job is quite unstable. We would go private if we had the means which unfortunately we don't.
The one thing that struck me from both threads & my own experiences in my own line of work is the inde school confidence. My collegues used to make me quake in my boots even though they were just lovely, they had an unwavering self belief, never second guessed themselves.
I want my dd's to have this sense of self-worth(I don't have it). Any advice on how to foster it at home? All opinions welcome but would be interested to hear from parents with dc at inde schools already. Is this confidence nurtured at home or school?

Perhaps everyone should just put Kipling's "If" at the end of their bed to wake up to each morning.

My 5 (and I) all went to or go to private schools and some are shy and some not so I am not convinced everyone is brimming with confidence. What they do have is they speak as I do with received pronunciation and my parents paid extra for elocution lessons and speech and drama exams for me so when it came to taking part in debates at university etc I was happy and able to do that and I do a lot of public speaking now. One of my older children had to give a work talk yesterday which yes was scary for her but she did it fine and she prepared and was used to talking. Lots of state schools have debating, model united nations and school plays and the like though - this is not just a private school thing.

Secondly we mostly use very accurate English grammar and spelling so make sure your children do and again that can be achieved at state schools even if everyone else at school says you was or you know every other word.

Thirdly, make sure they know what to wear in what context so they fit in with whatever people they are meeting or are confident enough that it will not matter.

I put manners first actually - seeing it as your obligation to look after others, introduce them, look them in the eye, help them, be as good to the people who mean nothing to you and from whom you will gain no favours is a really good principle for people to follow and I hope people in all schools do that.

So why have I always thought I was pretty good? Not sure. Loved at home. Best exam results in the school. University prizes. Earn a lot. I suppose it is self fulfiling isn't it?

Perhaps ensure children have a successful full time working mother too as an example although I doubt any stay at home mothers on this thread would like to read that....although if they have huge confidence of the importance of mothers at home they will just smile.

You are right Jilly, I find myself agreeing with some of what you say and smiling at the rest; I always like to read your posts.

I find it rather depressing when some trainees (in their twenties) I come into contact with can't make eye contact, smile and say hello. I am an introvert so I appreciate quietness but there is a protocol to meeting people in a workplace!

I think of myself as a very confident person. I have not been hugely successful in my career, because I have chosen to be at home with children at certain times and to spend time doing voluntary work, but O absolutely believe that if I had wanted to and that if I decided to today, It could get to a high level in the area I worked in.
It is because I have great self-belief. I see other people around me who have been successful and know without a doubt that I am as capable as them or moreso.

I think a ccucial thing in confidence is not just how we see ourselves but how we see others. I think most people in positions of power don't have any extra special abilities, they just had the balls to apply for those jobs. There are loads of people in high up jobs who aren't very talented and who are winging it. I know I have equal talent or more and I could wing it too. And knowing that about them means that when I think about them or relate to them, I don't feel daunted or inferior or insecure. I feel I can approach them as an equal.

Parents and schools which teach their children to see other people as .....just people, do them a great service. Children need to be taught to show respect and to value skill and expertise, but also to relate to other people (adults included) as equals who are not somehow more worthy than themselves. Teach children to value their own strengths and to recognise everyone has strengths and weaknesses and that they are as good as the next person.

Yes to Jilly's comments about children learning how to approach someone, to say hello, to shake hands, to introduce them to others, to ask simple questions.......basic social skills.
Too many people allow children to loll in the corner and ignore visitors,whatever the age of the child.
Learning to speak to a wide range of people and to alter your conversation according to who you are speaking to is also important. I'd like my children to be able to chat to the road sweeper, their teacher, the Doctor, a high court judge and a homeless person and to exchange the time of day.

Why, why, why is there this constant assumption by some OPs on MN that that DC lives are determined by their school...?
I went to a school that at one point had the worst added value in the country, was complete rubbish. My school did not define me.
I was quite shy as a teenager ( like many teenagers) uncertain as a young adult(....) and grew in confidence in my professional career.
Now post menopausal am I pretty much up for any challenge, have lots of confidence and firmly believe in just going for it.
My DC are at a school which the total opposite of mine - one of the best in the country. They are shy teenagers, like I was, maybe genetic.
But however their lives turn out - we won't be whining 'it was the school wot dunnit' - lazy assumption to say your school defines you.

I refer you to my earlier post

Hmmm, it's a difficult one.

I know arrogant public school people, those who brim with quiet confidence and some who are crippled with shyness. I think as someone pointed out upthread, we focus on the very few who have made it big, but there are thousands of alumni of public/private schools every year and most of those end up as quite ordinary people, not investment bankers or promming around wearing red trousers or puffa jackets. (Promming - one would think one "m" - but it looks wrong... totally off the point...)

There was a thread ages ago about "private school shininess" and I do think that sometimes the kids look more confident to outsiders - swishy hair, floppy hair, nice clothes and a better bearing. And, to reiterate, we probably notice the ones who are strutting about rather than their shy comrades.

I would say that Manners Maketh the Man (or Woman) and knowing how to behave from an early age sets one up for life: one is not dithering wondering if one is doing/saying the right thing etc.

I apologise if this offends anyone, that isn't my attention.
You can spot people who have been to the 'posher' private schools by their demeanor.But this doesn't come across as confidence as much as arrogance.It is not appealing to most people

yes to self belief

also to manners. Insist on looking people in the eye. TEach them how to make conversation - ie always ask people about themselves. Even my 8 year old can do this.

Also I can't bear shyness

It just puts the onus onto the other person to make all the running/conversation

I strongly encourage my children to make a bloody effort however they are feeling

To say all which been to "posher private schools" are arrogant is as ridiculous as saying all who attend state schools are knuckle dragging inarticulate clods with no social skills.
IMO arrogant children frequently have arrogant parents whether this parental arrogance is associated with or a by product of financially lucrative career that enable you to pay school fees is a of course another story.

My Ds is just finishing his A levels at a well known 'posh' private boarding school.

He has a confidence and the school has given him that, however he also had a summer admin role last summer after mail shoting local companies. They want him back this summer, if he was seen as entitled and arrogant he wouldn't have lasted 5 mins!

Personally, I wonder if years of classrooms dominated by "group work" doesn't have a discouraging effect on confidence. My daughter seems to have learned that if she wants to fit in and be liked, she has to be very careful not to show too much confidence in her views and ideas in these situations, in order to not appear to be a know-it-all, over-confident, etc. I know at independent schools use varying amounts of groupwork too, but I get the impression it is less dominant. At least now that she is doing GCSEs, she gets more opportunity to express her opinions confidently in her essay-writing, but of course that's not really the same.

I was privately educated. Class sizes were small and teachers very attentive and encouraging. Not surprisingly my self confidence was good and there was the unspoken understanding that we enjoyed a privileged life.

DH attended an elite independent. Extremely academic. The fact they passed the entrance exam immediately proved they were in the top 5% academically. Followed by 7 years of teachers reinforcing 'you are the best of the best' Further reinforced by DH becoming house captain and capped for England School Boys.

It's surprising he isn't over bearingly arrogant, but he really isn't. But bags and bags of relaxed self confidence, oh my goodness yes

DD passed the 11+. Constant assertions of 'you are far more clever than the vast majority of other teenagers around here' by teaching staff. Lots of recognition of school's excellence in local media. School teams which compete and succeed nationally. It's easy for some of that lustre to rub off on pupils.

Going back to the OP's question, a lot of it is about acting, keeping a calm front and a cool head no matter what you are feeling like underneath. Putting on a front. And then you know you can do it, so you take confidence from that.

So what can you do about it?

Acting lessons or publc if you can afford them to learn that the show must go on no matter what you feel like, and to hold yourself well. Or something as part of a team.

Train the person to cope in any situation, ie take them out of their comfort zone, help them and then praise and reflect afterwards. As children we were made to hand round the eats at adult parties. None of this putting the children elsewhere to have a separate pizza gorge elsewhere in those days. So you had to talk to people.

Family meals with the extended family. You have to listen to granny going on again about her youth. And again not at the children's end of the table.

Two things to bear in mind
I'll do my best, no- one can ask for more
People take you at your own estimation.

And finally, most people love talking about themselves. If you appear interested in them, pleasant, not self absorbed, you will get a long way. Ignore yourself to focus in them. This is the one thing that imv Eton teaches brilliantly or did in my generation. They make you feel that your opinion counts.

None of this requires a private school education. At a school in which I am involved the staff often eat with the children. There are lunches with the governors. Tim Brighouse, the former London schools man and academic used to suggest that when going into a school you asked a child where they were going to go to university and preferably shook hands, even in primacy. Both unusual experience for some.

Bloody phone. Posted before I had finished. Acting or public speaking.

The school does things like spelling bees and those get even the shyest kids up on stage. Sympathy if you fail, because most people do at one point, but you have to go on.

Doing voluntary work. Really helps.

Anything that forces you to appear to think about other people not yourself.

I have v limited inner confidence but that's not the impression I give.

Children learn from their peers in a very subtle way - verbal mannerisms, accents, body language.

My nephew went from a state primary into a very good private secondary school. He seemed to physically transform within the space of two months or so - different accent, better posture, and appeared more confident and articulate. It had bugger all to do with the teaching, and everything to do with assimilating with the group that he found himself in. Children do this. They're actually very good at it.

Clustering the clever and privileged together in a small number of institutions has the effect of amplifying and concentrating certain qualities and behaviours.

OP - my suggestion is to simply try to get your child to mix with as many privileged children as possible out of school so they can 'catch' some of their mannerisms and confidence. Sailing clubs, horse riding, rugby, orchestra. Do some social engineering of your own.

My children were privately educated and Im not convinced its private education that gives a person natural confidence. I thinks it exposure to lots of different experiences and other people.

I live in a society where everyone shakes hands when they meet and children are expected to talk to the person they are greeting, there's no hiding behind someones leg and being shy. And even from a young age my children were taken to proper restaurants and expected to take part in conversations, and if people came to the house they were involved the way Ancient has described. There was no hiding upstairs in the bedroom and even until my marriage broke down my now adult children would be expected by their dad to be in the house to meet businessmen he was meeting with. Even our grandchildren would be introduced to them.

I also think the public speaking Ancient mentions is also important from a very young age.

But mostly I think confidence comes from lots of different life experiences.

OP - my suggestion is to simply try to get your child to mix with as many privileged children as possible out of school so they can 'catch' some of their mannerisms and confidence. Sailing clubs, horse riding, rugby, orchestra. Do some social engineering of your own.

Yes, there is something to that.

Personally, I wonder if years of classrooms dominated by "group work" doesn't have a discouraging effect on confidence. My daughter seems to have learned that if she wants to fit in and be liked, she has to be very careful not to show too much confidence in her views and ideas in these situations, in order to not appear to be a know-it-all, over-confident, etc

On the contrary, DD found at her comp that group work was an exercise in buck-passing and skiving. If she had the ideas and/or executed them then the rest of the group were quite happy to let her get on with it. There weren't many competing alpha-types.

Much of it is about setting an example. My dad was super relaxed and confident and it rubbed off on me. Likewise manners are important. Saying good morning and being kind to everyone. Reasonable grammar and turn of phrase.
The cool confidence was learned by example for me.......
I feel bad for people being interviewed who don't know the basics, such as smiling and saying hello. And simple communication and eye contact. They can frequently loose out to others less well qualified, simply because they are gauche.

"On the contrary, DD found at her comp that group work was an exercise in buck-passing and skiving."

Oh, that too, of course. But not always. And if you care about your social reputation, you still have to be careful not to imply that your ideas are better than other people's, in those situations where they come up with some.

Just marking my place, a very useful thread!