The Trinity-Whitgift-Dulwich-Alleyns 10+/11+ thread 2015

[Firefox1066]

I thought I would take the plunge and start early the 2015 T/W/DC/A 10+/11+ thread that has become an annual staple MN!

This thread has been inspired by the likes of (among others) Ladymuck, Seeline, SoupDragon et al, who have been an amazing resources to people like me in previous years' threads.

Although T & W tend to dominate, I have also included DC and Alleyns as I know a lot of parents these days have DC's sitting for some/all of them.

I hope this thread will continue in the spirit of previous years' thread, with the support, hand-holding and knowledge that has been the hallmark of MN generally but this thread in particular.

Let the fun begin....

*AT LEAST

That doesn't seem right to me. Surely you need speed AND accuracy. You shouldn't be effectively penalised if you attempt to finish a paper but are slightly less accurate. I haven't a clue about these things, I'm only voicing my opinion!

I agree with LM re parents feeling differently once offers are received. Some are elated with enticing offer from prefered school, others disappointed if no scholarship but had been led to believe that dc was being considered. The tone of the offer letters also play a part: one friend got cold feet about a school because the music scholarship letter said the head of department had been impressed by dc's playing, but my friend knew he had not even been in the room as she had been accompanying!

Regarding VR at Whitgift, they certainly used to age standardise the scores, because at 9 or 10 children will still be gaining over 1,000 words a year, so you need to be able to compare the results of a September born with an August born. There is usually a table which does this, so that an August born will have his score (out of 100, not how many qs attempted) compared against August born results. This results in a score in the range from 60-140 where 100 is the mean. Anything above 112 would be considered to be "above average", and a score of 128+ would theoretically put you in the top 4% of the general population. An August born with a raw score of 70/100 may get the same standardised score as a September born with a raw score of 78/100. In terms of raw percentages, again you are trying to compare a pool of candidates, and it would be odd to give higher ranking to a child who got 46 questions correct but only attempted 50 than one who got 90/100 correct. In reality very few candidates will have managed to attempt all 100 questions, but those who did will get full credit, and I would strongly advise future candidates against pursuing a strategy of answering fewer questions!

In the past Whitgift used to put a lot of emphasis on the VR score as a sign of potential, and I would expect that it carries a lot of weight at the 10+ stage in particular, and will balance out a weaker paper.

ladymuck I was wondering about this since W interview. The interviewer told me DS scores, for VR he told me his place in the order of ranking (let's say 15th, just as an example), but for maths and comprehension he told me points above average.

I was breaking my head trying to understand what it means. If DS is - say randomly - 10 points above average in maths, how many questions out of 28 they have did he answer correctly? And what does it mean that they didn't tell me his 'place' in maths - that it is not anywhere in the top 20 or that they only rank like that in VR?

Just very curious, they obviously have a robust and well functioning system, a glimpse of it would be interesting.

Thanks Ladymuck ... Clearly the information given isn't correct! The methodology outlined is similar to CEM methodology for INCas assessments.

You guys were lucky... The interviewer placed our chairs wayyyyyyyy back so no chance to see DS's scores!

Because the VR score is already age-standardised, the score itself tells you how far above average you are.

In terms of giving Maths and English scores as an indication of where you fall from the mean, again they are looking at the bell curve of scores, most of which will be clustered around the mean. The further you are ahead of the mean, the better you have performed against that population. The actual raw scores/percentages are less relevant, it is mainly how you have done against the other candidates that matters.

If you had a score of 128 in VR but you scored 5 marks above the average in English, then I would read that as you had underperformed in the English paper, and might look at why that would be the case.

In terms of not being given a precise ranking, I would try not to read too much into it. They could dazzle you with an array of statistics, and I'm sure that any inconsistent VR scores have been analysed carefully. If there is something that bothers you specifically about what they've said then I'm sure that they'll answer any questions after offers come out.

Sorry - it is hard to answer a hypothetical question! They certainly will have ranked all the boys for every subject. And regardless of which subject they taught, teachers used to need to be a dab hand at working out the standard deviation of a cohort's marks (funny how popular the maths teachers became at certain points in the year!).

*information given to ME isn't correct!

Yes, CEM also use age standardisation Firefox. Good luck with your T interview today!

Interestingly, DS's scores were pretty much the same in Maths, Essay and VR.... Comprehension was noticeably weaker (hence DS having to read and answer questions in it at interview)

In the end though, I decided not to over analyse... Clearly our DSs did well enough to interview and as LM has said up thread, they do not invite children who they do not want.

Thanks Firefox and Ladymuck for the replies on VR. Very helpful regarding the mean and above average. I suppose I should have just come out and asked how he did on VR rather than being sneaky!! And then asked for an explanation of how scored....hind sight and all that!

Firefox- Chairs were also fairly far back but as I have stubby legs have to sit on very edge of chair (or legs will swing like a nursery child)! Luckily I read as well upside down as right side up!! Was also interesting to read what interviewer wrote down as the interview went on - though nothing that would reassure like - "we will definitely offer this one a place". That would have been nice.

Supposition is my latest past time as we have no idea what any of this means and so are left analysing, over analysing and then finally stressing!!

ladymuck many thanks! wow, it's very impressive!

You're right, I am trying to read into it, mainly hoping for some form of bursary but there is really nothing else to do but just wait and then maybe also ask the school for more info after the offers come out.

I'd like to get a realistic idea of DS performance, as he is from a state primary, v. difficult to tell where he sits in the cohort of well prepared kids.

I'd like to know - then it may be easier to sign all those cheques for years to come, knowing that there are better performing kids with scholarships rather than thinking: 'mmm we should have tried 11+ and more schools, mmm he is performing so well, mmm did I make the right choice..'

I guess casting my mind back over recent years, I would say that most people who ended up with academic awards had usually had some indication that it was being considered at interview. If anything, this has always been a two-edged sword, because I know of more parents who came away from interview feeling almost certain of an award, and in the end felt disappointed in a full fees offer. On the other hand I don't think that I can genuinely remember anyone post interview being really surprised at getting an award when they weren't expecting one. But I guess a lot of that may boil down to the interviewer.

Thanks ladymuck; yes, I think I am waiting for two full fee offers as the best outcome. I have a feeling as DS wasn't asked any Maths and Eng questions and given his score that he sits firmly in the top 20-25% which is very good as a result of me fretting and nagging him to study , of course, his own achievement, but not exceptional for an award.. Anyway, we'll see.

Thanks again Lady Muck. You are a fountain of info! Will take their Well and Very Well for Maths and English as just that. He performed well/ very well within his cohort. That is good enough for me! (I am good at telling myself what I want to hear!)

As you say hypothetical question doesn't help. Without the full data to see where the mean falls one can't really tell.
This brings back memories of bell curves and pass marks at uni. Good times - was saved more than once by the test having to be curved.

Sorry-cross post!

Olguis, it is worth noting that well over half of the boys sitting will be from state primary schools. There simply aren't that many prep school kids around, let alone ones who would suit these schools.

But certainly there are plenty of boys who sit at 10+ and don't quite make the grade, but do make a leap in the next year and resit at 11+. Certainly I know boys with a full fees offer at 10, who then got scholarship and bursary at 11, as well as a number who didn't get any offer at 10, and got places at 11. I also know boys who didn't get an offer at 11, but got scholarships at 13+. If you did decide to resit it certainly wouldn't be held against your son.

I think that you mentioned upthread about the possibility of sitting 13+ from one of these schools. I'd have to say that unless it was because of a geographical move then this would be a fairly unusual move, and likely to backfire as it would be very poor form within the HMC group of schools for a school to poach another pupil by offering an academic scholarship midway through their schooling... Certainly I would be exceedingly surprised if one of the London schools did so. I'm aware of a couple of precedents on the co-curricular side.

ladymuck this is so useful, thank you so much!

I am completely new to this and also not from this country so I didn't realise there is more like a fraternity among indy schools and you aren't free to move in between that much, it's considered poaching...

Poor parents; I am thinking of what kind of Saturday job in addition to my normal one I can take to pay the fees, it's not overly joyous to know there is not really any other chances - either 11+ or 6th Form.

I am not sure I and DS can endure another year of preparation and the stress of exams and interviews. Oh, why does it have to be so hard

Anyone know anything about City Boys here? We were originally told that boys wouldn't be invited for the sports trial (for the sports scholarship) unless they were also to be offered an academic interview.

They are sending out letters re. the academic interview tomorrow.

Anyway, today we got a detailed letter inviting ds to the sports trial next week. Does anyone know if everyone who applied for the sports scholarship got one of these or does it indicate that he will be given an academic interview? It seems a bit weird to have sent this out if he in fact ineligible. (Very clearly in original letter 'Candidates NOT offered an academic interview will NOT be given a Sport Trial' all in bold).

Clutching at straws...

Did we ever resolve (either in this or in previous years threads) whether who you are seen with at T is indicative of scholarship or not??

Sorry, I meant at W

Farewell, yep he's made the cut academically. So far, so good! Still a few rollercoaster flips to get through! At least the sporty boys typically enjoy their assessment days.

Thank you so much Ladymuck - it seems a bit disjointed to have sent the sports trial information two days earlier, but it would be even more disjointed if they didn't have the list of eligible boys, waste of stamps and all.

Now we're humming and hawing about whether to pull him out if the sports trial. He absolutely loves sport, but the aggressively competitive nature of his local league has rather dampened his enthusiasm.

But then again, a morning off school...

Different departments Farewell! I can't speak for all schools, but I have come across several sports departments who seem to forget that they're attached to a school at all! It is worth bearing in mind for whichever school you do end up in, especially if you have sampled a girls sports department first.

I'm thinking in terms of communications etc, rather than they've totally ignored pupils. The first few fixtures can be a bit of tough going as parents find out "everything that the sport department assume you know, but didn't bother to tell you".