Should I pull my son out of preschool? Very upset.

[sh77]

Hi. I would be very grateful for some advice as none is forthcoming in RL.

Ds is 3.9 and has just finished his fourth term at preschool. He has real difficulties settling in during the first half term in September. He attended mornings only and for 3 hours was expected to sit at a desk and do worksheets, art, writing name. There was no scope for proper play and interaction.

At the start of term, I told his teacher he has problems interacting - doesn't seem interested in making friends and could she pay attention to that. Throughout term she mentioned he doesn't sit still for story time, doesn't know his colours, doesn't know how to write his name (he is very articulate and I have no concerns about his learning ability). Anyway, last week she told me he has been aggressive towards other kids all term and that his behaviour is worse than theirs. I was very upset she left it a whole term. His behaviour is pretty normal at home - no rudeness, aggression, tantrums. My guess is that he is frustrated at having to sit for 3 hours and maybe feels bored with the activities (or lack of). He is always occupied at home.

I put ds in a second nursery in the afternoon because I am so concerned about his social skills. ( I am a SAHM and so maybe it is my fault he isn't well socialised.) It is an excellent play based one with access to outdoors. He did push there also but his teacher was v sympathetic and said he just hasnt learned to play in all the time he was at the other nursery. He is improving though.

My ds has an assessment at a selective school in Spring. They will need a nursery report. My concern is if I pull him out of the first nursery, will the school request a report from the first morning preschool? My only reason to keep him there is because it prepares kids for assessment. My instinct is to pull him out.

God I feel like a shit mum.

Her ideas are completely outdated, and potentially quite damaging for some children. I feel really sad for all those poor children, having to sit a desks. In fact, the more I think about it, if she is accepting the 15 hours funding, I think she has to comply with the EYFS which she is clearly not doing at present. If she is difficult about the notice period it might be worth speaking to your Local Authority early years team as she is not meeting your child's needs.

Why can't he do afternoons at the first nursery and mornings at the second one? I know you think I'm probably ott but the first nursery needs reporting! Especially if they are accepting funding as littllefish says.

I have a three year-old and he certainly couldn't sit at a desk for three hours. Well unless he was strapped down and the desk was covered in a selection of toys, crafts, snacks and an iPad. I'm not sure any of his friends could either. His preschool do circle time at the end of the session to get them used to sitting still and listening, but it's only about 15 minutes. For the first few months DS had to sit next to a teacher to be encouraged to sit. They don't do any formal learning. He knows letters, colours, numbers etc. anyway, because umm three year-old s learn through play.

I think you're right to remove him and go with the play based place. I'd also be reconsidering the school, but they change so quickly at this age that it might be right for him by the time he starts.

The nursery does not do to the free 15 hours, which is why I didn't let him do afternoons (i pay extra for him to do music!). hadn't realised the funding was about complying with the EYSF, which his teacher said it does. She said they don't do the grant as the place is more like a school - made no sense.

Can I ask if you are abroad? We had a similar experience with pre-schools when ds1 was little when we lived in the middle east. He thrived when we moved him from a very similar nursery to the one you are describing. I'm a bit concerned about the sound of the school you are considering. Selection at age 4?

Hi lem. I am in London. Selection at 4 is very normal in the independent sector as so many good schools are over-subscribed.
Just read through the EYSF document - nursery is not complying with it in so many ways...
Solomon - in the afternoon place, the kids do circle time at the start and end of the session but the rest is free play.

at the pre-schools prioritising that 3 year olds 'must focus'.

He should be enjoying his last year as a pre-schooler, not being forced into a school regime before he is ready. Definitely pull him out. Making him lose his interest in learning now by making his sit at a desk can only be detrimental.

I would keep sending him to the afternoon nursery if he enjoys it, and do learning through play activities with him at home in the mornings.

Sorry you have had such an upsetting time.

She said they don't do the grant as the place is more like a school - made no sense.

Yes, makes no sense. My kids all went to school nursery (ie. the nursery attached to the school) and were funded.

Sounds totally weird. They are trying to get children to do something which a) they aren't ready to do and b) goes against all guidlines.
If the selective school you are planning to send him to is any good, they will totally understand why you decided to remove him. Just be honest and matter of fact about it.

Get him the hell out of there.

He has years ahead of him having to sit at desks and focusing.

He should be playing and making friends and getting filthy. not chained to a desk

I agree with piggychops. If the school you want to send your child to has a preference for the first nursery then I wouldn't want my child there either.

North London? If it is the nursery/pre-prep I an thinking of (which sounds similar), it is a love it or hate it kind of place.

Hi sh77
So sorry for your loss.

To give you another point of view we moved out of London partly for this reason. Dd1 was completely fine with the type of approach your first nursery take - loved doing worksheets getting things right, pleasing her teacher etc. Dd2 completely different, she loved racing round, muddy play, headbutting (?!?) and mess. They are both very bright girls doing well at their academically very selective secondary school. At age 4 I would never have dreamed that dd2 would be matching dd1. I fear that in a highly competitive (London) type environment dd2 might have been put under so much pressure she would have struggled or just been plain miserable.

Children tend to learn best when they are happy and relaxed. Definitely bin the first nursery. It's making you both miserable.

Maybe it's worth explaining your circumstances and looking round some other private schools in your area? Whilst a lot of London schools claim to have long waiting lists there is a huge amount of movement right up to (and beyond) the September when they start.

One of my DC went to a pre-prep and it was nothing like the first nursery! It gets children into very selective (just outside London) schools too, and is even recommended by them.

Talk to the schools he is going to be assessed by, which places do they recommend? Do they even know the first nursery?

If they are very like it and don't believe "little boys are active creatures" then I would definitely be looking for alternatives.

I am so sorry for your loss sh77. Maybe as you are all (of course) still grieving it is particularly important for your DS to have a nursery space in which he can play/feel carefree? It sounds as if the morning nursery school is making you both miserable and worried. I know it's really hard to step back from the London education hysteria, but I would ditch it. He sounds lovely and bright but in your circumstances I think the social/emotional side should be your priority.

DS is 2 and we are very high on the waiting list for an apparently much coveted place for him next September at a popular nursery/pre-prep in NW3. We went to look round it the other day and to be honest we were both quite horrified! DS is quite cautious and sensitive and much stronger with fine motor stuff (drawing, trainsets etc) than the gross motor things so in some ways I suspect he would handle the structure etc quite well - it sounds rather like what you describe - but it didn't feel rounded at all and the constant talk about exams, academic skills etc was SO off-putting. They kept saying the children weren't pressured at all, it was all normal to them, which to be honest I thought was staggeringly naive: we felt pressured on their behalf just being shown round! We are going to take our chances with local state nursery and primary (we are planning to move next year anyway).

A friend of mine is a speech therapist who goes into loads of nurseries across North/East London and she says the best ones are often in children's centres, even in particularly deprived areas.

I would pull him out of the morning preschool and leave him in the afternoon one.

And I say that as mum of the world's geekiest preschooler, who would have LOVED sitting at a desk and doing worksheets for three hours every day at that age. It's not what they need to be learning when they are three.

3 hours sat at a desk...I remember leaving my DS on the carpet at nursery one day ( when about 3) and came to collect and co incidentally was sat on the carpet when I returned..He said he had been sat on the carpet all morning waiting for me...I laughed. That was never going to happen. In reception it is mostly learning through play.

I am a childminder and the focus of getting a child ready for school is learning to take turns, listening and following instructions, able to dress themselves, developing fine motor skills....These aren't done by sitting at a desk these are done with games, listening to stories, messy play, play doh.

Can you just do one morning a week at the school like preschool. Then every afternoon at the nice play led one

Actually I would cancel the morning sessions completely. You can do any little extra bits of academic stuff on your own at home in a good fun way. His morning sessions are a really negative start to formal education.

The pre-school sounds extremely outdated!

We're also in London, we have plenty of friends who've had to put their DC through the 3+ or 4+ assessments for private preps due to the lack of school places (we were lucky, being in the catchment for an outstanding state primary, so didn't do it ourselves). The vast majority of the DC at the private nursery our DC went/go to move on to private, so you can assume that the nursery is preparing them adequately (especially as many of the DC are there 8-6, 5xweek).

Our nursery is nothing like the pre-school you describe. Neither is the YR of the outstanding primary school. Both strongly promote learning through play. Yes, the DC are taught to write their own names - but in fun ways, eg in sand, with water brushes, with counters, etc, not just with pencils and most definitely not sitting down at a desk. Numbers are taught with numbered toy cars speeding down garage ramps, picking up leaves in the park, painting numbers on stones... You get the picture! The valuable aspect of these "lessons" is that the children also learn teamwork and social skills - which they can't learn working individually.

Children do need to learn to focus, but focusing on an activity doesn't have to mean sitting at a desk.

Agree the second nursery sounds much better, and the PPs' suggestions for local centres are also good.

I was quite concerned with a lack of dedicated writing/phonics/maths time at DC's school. We are in a black spot for good schools where we live so a private one was something we considered early on. At nursery DC could (and did) choose playing over almost any other activity and I can see now it made perfect sense. DC is very good at imaginative play, very inventive and quick at figuring things out as playing and cooperating with a range of kids teaches just that. In the end DC got into a selective prep. Didn't show any interest in reading or writing despite my best efforts before starting school but steaming ahead now and is not different from kids that spent every morning practising phonics. What I noticed during play dates is that his play with kids from his nursery is a lot more varied and interesting than the way his new friends from the school do it. And it's a shame because they won't be able to catch up on that later.

Correction: Dedicated time ... at DC's NURSERY

One more thing: the kind of conversations you are describing is the norm between private school parents. I am struggling with this at the moment. And it's not only about kids' achievements. Children talk about whose house is bigger, who has a house in country or just a garage etc. I assume it's only going to get worse. DH who went to a private boarding school is less phased about it as it was like that in those days as well. I am just annoyed that I can't have a good education for my son without all the bells and whistles attached. So you have to grow really thick skin and make sure that you don't loose sight of a marvellous boy you know you have. By the way, he will be reading what you feel not what you say to him so confidence in him would need to come from inside.

I am deeply horrified bythe first nursery description. Not how 3 year olds learn. Are they in a different century? Sounds like toddler torture. Run fast

I agree with horsemadmom It sounds as though either he isn't ready for long periods of intense learning. The alternative is that he learns differently, ie kinesthetic and needs to be active and on the move, or even it may be that he likes to learn through his own self motivated interactions and experiment.

My eldest went to a pre-school attached to pre-prep and enjoyed desk based activities. Sat for hours and then came home and demanded I sit with him and do maths! The youngest went to a play based pre-school and thrived socially, developed academically slower but is creative, caring, sporty and intuitive.

You need to think about what suits your child best and where he will be happy and thrive, be prepared just in case that isn't an academically selective primary school.