Girls school alumni wages

[MN164]

Education headlines regularly focus on the difference in average wages between differently educated people, usually independent vs state, sometimes other comparisons.

I haven't seen an analysis of outcomes for single sex vs co-ed.

Do girls educated in single sex schools earn more than their coeducational peers?

Perhaps that particular question would be muddled by most single sex schools being grammar, faith or independent but a good statistician should be able to normalise that effect.

Has anyone seen such analysis or evidence reported?

MN
But the fact that you have even looked it up shows that you are instinctively not treating children equally

you are thinking of her as a girl first and a future adult second
so your expectations have already hamstrung her

TP

So taking an interest in the fact of gender inequality in society is enough to render me a sub-optimal parent? Do you think that of all "feminists" too? That's both blinkered and judgmental.

I prefer "more information is better" and you can make your assumptions about my life as much as you like.

I know my daughter who was at North London Collegiate (all girls and often in the top 3 of schools for A levels in the UK of all types) thinks her school had a very positive impact on her career. She and her sister (who was at Habs) are 40% tax payers in their 20s etc.

My sons are / were at all single sex schools too and I am happy with that too.

It must be quite hard to get to the right data however as some of the most selective schools are single sex. It tends to be a fairly private short on numbers or with A level results which are not that good which then starts to take in girls (or boys).

I know daughter 2 says that her school was very good at making it clear there were no boy or girl subjects. She did science A levels, a BSc etc (although now is a lawyer). Also we are a very musical family and it is much easier at prep school level to get boys of 12 to sing in the school choirs if everyone in school is a boy so singing doesn't become a girls' thing.

I went to an all girls grammar in the 80's, and thought nothing of it whilst I was there. It wasn't until I went onto do my degree that I realise d the benefits. I was told on numerous occasions that I couldn't have maths or physics A levels because I was a girl. The fat that I was doing a BSc was also questioned. Such issues had never entered my head. At school the full range of subjects were on offer and we chose what we wanted - there was no thought of male/female subjects. I think that gave me the confidence to rise above such prejudices in my further education/employment life.
If girls are able to have a free choice in the education subjects, they may well choose subjects that lead to higher paid job opportunities - science, engineering etc.
Personally I think girls and boys also learn in very different ways, and therefore benefit from a better education in a single sex environment. If this leads to better qualifications, then again their earning potential may be raised.
I know it's not everybody's choice, but it is one we are entitled to make. My Ds goes to an all-boys secondary school, and I am hoping that DD will go to an all-girls.

I did physics and maths A levels in the 80s
my DD is at a coed comp doing Chemistry, Maths and Further maths as well as Biology and an MFL
she does not enjoy physics - despite getting an A at the GCSE so did not continue it

When I did my BSc in the 80's there were LOADS of other girls on my courses

I loathed single sex schooling and would not inflict it on my children

Single sex schools are basically London or fee paying
the rest of us get co ed and make the best of it

My private school was single sex too and I earn reasonable amounts.
Also around here those cultures who do not like boys and girls mixing as teenagers because they will be having arranged marriages in due course etc probably help towards ensuring the single sex schools do well because the families are paying fees and put huge store by academic success.

Some boarding schools have children together until 11, then separate classes until sixth form when they merge again I think. Also some schools which used to be all boys and let girls in limit girl numbers so there are two thirds boys for example which I am not sure is great for the girls.

Presumably it remains lawful to have selection by gender in state education eg if you were founding a new free school or whatever particularly if you had religious reasons for that whereas I think most new selective education schools rather than selection by gender are banned in the majority of the country which has no grammar schools.

Clear advice: Find the school that you believe will be best suited from the available options (if you're lucky enough to have any).

It's also tough to set aside our own schooling experiences, but I feel I have to because:

• what worked/didn't work for me is not relevant for a different person (i.e. our children)

• what our schools was like X decades ago is also irrelevant

• the curriculum and exam system has also changed considerably

• wider society has also changed

That said, I think there are some persistent "themes" to our anecdotes and experiences, which is lucky because there is hardly any proper theory backed by evidence to rely on.

There are many truly excellent girls' schools outside of Greater London that outperform national and even sectoral averages. While I agree with comments above that you need to decide based on the individual child, there is no way on this green earth that I would permit my daughters (8, 10, 13 yo) to attend co-ed secondary school or sixth form. I want them to grow up at their own pace, and that does not happen, imo, in a modern co-ed environment.

Nessa
I want them to grow up at their own pace, and that does not happen, imo, in a modern co-ed environment.
Please explain?
Do tell me what dangers my DD has faced that she would not have done if there were girls schools in this county?

How about these stats taken from the Laura Bates, Everyday Sexism book?

1 in 3 girls from aged 16 to 18 have experienced unwanted sexual touching at school. YouGov 2010.

33 per cent of girls aged 13 to 17 have experienced some form of sexual abuse. NSPCC 2009

Or the anecdotes from the book including the science teacher at a Yorkshire secondary that overhears boys calling girls whore, bitch, slag and slut every day and boys phones confiscated for watching hard core porn in class.

I think I can see why people might have a valid reason for concern. At least valid enough not to be dismissed out of hand or without due consideration.

the multiple of anecdote is not data

the title of the book does not imply an open mind

please explain why I've put my kids in danger sending them to co ed schools

Who's talking about your kids except you?

TalkInPeace, MM164 quotes some reliable studies / data, which supports that which I have encountered elsewhere.
I am not referring to anyone else's children than mine. Forgive me if my expression offended you, but I stand by my opinion.

I think the key is the difference in tendency to study and excel in STEM subjects which are correlated with higher wages. If your DD is always most likely to do English History and Art A Levels then it may not matter each way. Likewise if she's clearly a maths genius and going to get A*s in maths, FM, Physics/Chemistry no matter what then it's probably not a big deal. But it could make a difference at the margins.

And the plural of anecdotes about sexual assault in schools may not be data, but it is evidence that the problem exists in some schools Talkin. Not proof that it's necessary to segregate all teens, but not a consideration to ignore completely.

Why is data from the NSPCC or YouGov being dismissed as anecdotal?

It is presented as data plus anecdotes.

It's a really interesting question.

I went to a talk recently where they talked about the difference in girls taking STEM subjects at GCSE, A-Level and beyond. Girls in single sex education were far more likely to take STEM subjects than girls in mixed schools. Sorry I don't have the numbers.

STEM subjects are the way in to a lot of lucrative, satisfying careers so it seems that girls from single sex schools are going to have that option open to them (if it's the sort of thing they like) more than girls in co-ed.

I went to a girls school BTW and saw this effect for myself - there was no sense whatsoever that some subjects were more suited to girls etc everything felt open to all.

www.nspcc.org.uk/globalassets/documents/research-reports/child-abuse-neglect-uk-today-research-report.pdf

How much of this takes place in school or amongst school peers is not answered, but the answer will be a long way from zero (my guess).

7.6 Sexual abuse by peers
The risks from perpetrators of different ages need to be addressed. The high proportion of contact sexual abuse is perpetrated by under 18s (65.9 per cent
71) demonstrates the need for effective prevention, public education and support for young people in negotiating respectful relationships.

71
This includes contact sexual abuse by any person under 18 to another child or young person, siblings, peers and intimate partners. 57.5 per cent of contact sexual abuse was perpetrated by children and young people, 34.1 per cent was perpetrated by adults and 8.4 per cent was perpetrated by both adults and children or young people. Figures based on the reports of 0–17s.

I see now I have RTFT that I have repeated what Seeline said

And it has now moved on to other problems girls report in mixed sex schools. Another interesting survey is the girl guides one:

article on it here around girls experience at school the full report is google-able

Or this bit of research?

Enough data for you or shall I google some more?

EMPIRICAL RESEARCH
Adolescents’ Experiences of Sexual Assault by Peers: Prevalence
and Nature of Victimization Occurring Within and Outside
of School

Rates of peer sexual assault
were high, ranging from 26% of high school boys to 51%
of high school girls. School was the most common location
of peer sexual victimization.

www.ccasa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/adolescents-experiences-of-sexual-assault-by-peers.pdf

I think it's good that you are thinking around all this stuff OP.

Most important for me was whether I liked the atmosphere in the school (primary school).

DD is 7 and we were talking about "big school" the other day and she said she wanted to go to a school with just girls as the boys are disruptive (she didn't use that word I'm paraphrasing).

I don't know if she will change her mind as she gets older.

Perhaps because Talkinpeace has not had such an experience it can be concluded that this issue does not exist?

That's in the US though MN so not sure it's appropriate to assume the results are replicated here.

They might be of course I really don't know.

SevenZark

Sorry to cross post with you. Having a data rant.

Is this secondary school OP or primary?

The other thing you can do of course is, with the schools you are interested in, if they are available, look at numbers of boys v girls taking various subjects, and when you visit the schools ask them directly what their policies are around sexism, inclusion, and so on. If they don't have an immediate good answer then they probably haven't thought about it and aren't addressing it.

I thought of the US UK issue but then wondered if there really is such a difference between our cultures, media to make the research irrelevant. It's not like we're comparing Saudi and the UK.