Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

First post: what is wrong with considering private schools?

999 replies

dietcokeisgreat · 07/10/2014 14:12

Dear all,

I just starting looking at mumsnet last week and joined today. Some of my work colleagues talk about it and i am thinking about options for education for my son, who is just 3 and thought i would take a look. Well, i just starting the thinking, so it is early days.
We could pay for school, or maybe not, we don't know yet. He is our first child, we are having problems getting pregnant again, so unsure if there will be more yet.

I was surprised at some really negative comments on lots of threads towards people posting for advice/ whatever about private schools. Why are they doing that? What is wrong with people thinking about different options? Or asking about a school they know that is private? Twice i read something 'well i can't pay for school' as a response. For me, its no different to whether or not people have cash for other stuff. I can't afford to live in the smarter part of town, or pay for a boarding school but that doesn't mean no one should be allowed too!

Just wondering...don't want to post something that will enrage others or be and be upset by responses ....

Thank you.

OP posts:
MumTryingHerBest · 16/10/2014 19:52

ChocolateWombat We have not heard from a single person whose children go to the awful school Am I right in saying you think you know what school my DCs go to? Perhaps you care to name that school?

ChocolateWombat · 16/10/2014 19:59

MumTrying, sorry but I don't fully understand what you are saying.

I have no idea which school your child goes to. I am saying that no-one on this thread has said their child goes to the kind of school I describe as awful. Isn't that because everyone on here has been able to make choices to avoid such schools, whilst not everyone can do that....inherently unfair.

rabbitstew · 16/10/2014 20:05

I haven't complained about people sending their children to private schools - I've stated on other threads in the past that I can conceive of circumstances in which I would opt for the private sector (albeit uncomfortably, whereas my dh would be more than happy with the idea, being privately educated, himself). I expect after a while of having children in private school and getting to know the parents, I would get to be comfortable with it and stop seeing the fantastic facilities as somehow rather decadent and ott and think a bit less about how little is spent on state education in comparison to how much parents are actually willing to spend when they can afford to.

All I have done on this thread is to mock those who claim that people sending their children to state schools are complacent. And only because to join in seriously with the debate would be boring, given the way it goes round in circles, with nobody on either of the entrenched sides believing the sincerity of the others. Grin

ChocolateWombat · 16/10/2014 20:15

Smokepole, I think you take an interesting view of education.
To you, exam results are the be-all and end-all. I too, think they are very important and actually the single most important outcome from education.

And I agree, that if all schools were good, private schools would find themselves with a very reduced market, although not without one altogether. Those who choose it purely for the academic standards and exam results may well then be happy with the state option. Every year, many people holding Grammar and Independent offers select the Grammar option, because the academic result seem as good as, or better than the State option.

However, every year,there are also people holding offers for both who still choose to pay and go for the Independent option. They could get great exam results in both. They choose to pay for the other things that have been mentioned on this thread. So they feel their money is well spent if their children get a richer, broader experience. Many people feel Grammars can be rather sterile and narrow as an experience and want the broader approach. I guess it does sound smug to talk about the huge number of teams, the huge numbers of music groups, plays, trips abroad, careers advice that gets pretty much everyone into a RG Uni and high numbers into Oxbridge. But I think the reason people have mentioned those things, is to give an indication of why they might choose to pay. It is not always a case of choosing independent over state for the exam results. Often the exam results can be fantastic in State schools and these might well be available to parents....and often these state schools also have good extra curricular provision too. For many many people, they dream of their children going to such a school. But for some, and it is for those who can afford it, they sometimes see and want more. And they think (even if you don't) that the extras beyond the basic exam results are worth it. And of course it is unfair that some people can choose between a fantastic state school and a fantastic independent school.

And finally, you want selective schools. At the end of the day everyone needs to go somewhere. The fact is that there are pupils with limited abilities and also those with lots if behavioural problems. They still need to go somewhere. Under your ideas, which schools will select them?

MumTryingHerBest · 16/10/2014 20:22

ChocolateWombat - MumTrying, sorry but I don't fully understand what you are saying. Define what an awful school is and perhaps you may hear from people who have children in such schools. So far the only descriptions of bad schools on this thread are so far to the extreme (chair throwing, drug abusing primary school children blah de blah) that I doubt you will find many people anywhere who will say their children are going to such schools.

My post quoted you "We have not heard from a single person whose children go to the awful school" please could you clarify what you base this claim on given you have not idea what school my DCs go to and I've posted on this thread.

TalkinPeace · 16/10/2014 20:36

A lot of the people who are vehemently opposed to sending their kids to State schools hold that view because of what happened when they were at school.
Hence why I posted some of the insanity that went on when I was at private school.
Not all schools are like the bad apple.
Those bad apple schools are rarely like that for long.
Both in private and state sectors.

Parents have to make their choice based on empirical data and observation.
Looking as well as listening.
Seeing and hearing and analysing.

MumTryingHerBest · 16/10/2014 20:43

ChocolateWombat - Smokepole, I think you take an interesting view of education. To you, exam results are the be-all and end-all. It is the be all and end all for a LOT of parents who send their kids to private school. If this isn't the case please feel free to explain the reason so many parents are sending their DCs to prep. schools to prepare them for the 11 plus to get into specific state grammars/selectives.

Explain why so many parents specifically select private schools who have success in CE for particular private secondaries and why so many private schools promote their leavers destinations to Oxbridge & Russel Group university destinations.

I've yet to see a private school who lists their enrichment activity qualifications for their leavers, how many give information on the number of children who were a black belt in martial arts or had their own art display in a gallary or was grade 10 flute?

rabbitstew · 16/10/2014 21:00

Yes, of course it sounds smug to talk about the huge number of teams, music groups, plays and trips abroad, etc. It just makes you wonder what is happening to society - we appear to be travelling back in time, so that, instead of increasing opportunities for sport, music, drama, etc, for all, we have diminishing opportunities, with just a shrinking minority at the top enjoying all the goodies - in fact, having goodies coming out of their ears, so that they have a cornucopia of choice unimaginable to all but the most self-indulgent. I know we don't want to be dictated to, or all to be the same, or to have too many choices taken away from us, but surely society could strike a better balance? Do those at the top really need quite so much, and those at the bottom so little?

TalkinPeace · 16/10/2014 21:23

OK, this is scary.
I just looked up the website of my local school : I has assumed that they would have details of outings they have planned and have done (bearing in mind most of the kids get pupil premium)
Nyada. Nothing.
4 kids visited a University last term otherwise that's it.
The school is a comp : so I was a bit surprised to read this We long to see people flourish and discover their God-given potential. And that they have SLT led prayer sessions twice a month in the school.

Why is it that those kids who most NEED the support and breadth and opportunities do not get them - while 12 miles up the road some very rich privileged kids get unbelievable support.

ChocolateWombat · 16/10/2014 21:34

MumTrying, I did try to define what I mean by an awful school.
If thinking about secondary, it is a school which does poorly in relation to its intake. So given the starting point if it's pupils, it fails to help them achieve all that they could achieve and they leave with lower results and achievements than one would expect. As I said, this often includes a culture of low expectations, admist low level disruption. It means that the brightest are not challenged to achieve or given the chances to take the appropriate GCSEs and A Level,minor guided towards universities which they are capable of. It means that the children there have very limited access to broadening experiences and do not develop a thirst for learning or aspiration to be useful members of society.

I don't know which schools people on here send their children to. However, despite being asked numerous times, for people in the position if sending their children to such schools as described above, no-one has come forward. So whilst bemoaning the existence of private, I have deduced that few if any parents on here are in that kind of school. They have exercised whatever choice is open to them and made decisions to avoid those schools.
If I am wrong and your child is at such a school, then I would be interested to hear about it and if that is because you chose to support your principles about attending local schools, or if you were one of those I mentioned earlier, who truly has no choice.

I don't know which schools people send their children to,mor the type. People have largely talked theoretically on this thread. They are talking about bad state schools and the awful thing about Independent schools being that most people lack choice to attend them. In light of this, I thought it was relevant to ask to hear from people who feel they have truly had no choice and had to attend an awful school. But no one has said that is them,suggesting that most people have children in schools they are at least moderately satisfied with. They seem to have been able to avoid the awful schools. How is this? Is it because in their lives they have some element of control over schooling? Not everyone does though, and they are the people it would be interesting to hear from, not just us talking theoretically.

And with regard to your second comment about exam results.....I'm not sure we are disagreeing. I agreed that people often choose schools for exam results and that it is in my view the single most important factor. However, I also pointed out that some parents could get equally good exam results in some of the fantastic state schools which are available to them....some great Omps, but particularly in the Grammars. If the results there are as good as, or better than in Indpendent schools, how do you then explain why people STILL choose to pay? To me, it is because of something different that is on offer. Otherwise they would attend the free fantastic option. How else would you explain it, out of interest? (And note that here and with my previous comment you picked up on, I was talking about people choosing independent rather than great state school, not dreadful state school versus independent)

I hope that I am happy to engage in discussion and to read what people say and think about it.

TalkinPeace · 16/10/2014 21:42

Chocolate
The trouble with awful schools is that they often do not show up clearly in the data.

There is one not far from here that used to be the lie about where you live to get in school.
It still gets good paper results because lots of motivated families moved into the catchment over a 15 year period.
BUT
The head changed a couple of years back.
Since then there has been a 35% turnover of staff, total collapse in morale, waiting list has gone hero to zero
and DH on his most recent half yearly visit he's been going there for many years described it as Lord of the Flies because the Year 10's were in control of the school

When the league tables come out in January, alarm bells will start to ring - but that is two years too late. The rot has fully set in.
Its an Academy so the LEA cannot parachute a team in, no matter how badly its needed.

Hakluyt · 16/10/2014 21:46

How many awful schools do you think there are, chocolate?

ChocolateWombat · 16/10/2014 21:47

Talkin, yes I know what you mean. There is a time lag in terms of results on paper and reputations.
I guess the parents of pupils in the school have an idea that the school is bad though, even if it isn't totally clear to outsiders.
I realise though, that moving school mid way through isn't something most people will do, or are able to do.

Again, we are talking about the bad schools nearby or that we know about. Do any of us have children in them?

Hakluyt · 16/10/2014 21:47

"it is a school which does poorly in relation to its intake. So given the starting point if it's pupils, it fails to help them achieve all that they could achieve and they leave with lower results and achievements than one would expect."

Well, that would sure as hell show up on data!

MumTryingHerBest · 16/10/2014 21:48

TalkinPeace - Chocolate The trouble with awful schools is that they often do not show up clearly in the data. I fully agree, what's more the same data is not available for private schools so who knows how many of them are awful schools.

MumTryingHerBest · 16/10/2014 21:52

ChocolateWombat we are talking about the bad schools nearby or that we know about. Do any of us have children in them? I suspect my DCs are in one but the school is being propped up by the high levels of tuition for SATs (large numbers of parents are using tutors in yr 2) and 11 plus tution. However, from parents I know with DCs at local preps. it is pretty much the same there so not sure those schools are great either.

ChocolateWombat · 16/10/2014 21:58

Hak, I couldn't say how many there are in the country. Near here there are - couple of schools which are in special measures, because their school is graded 4 (Inadequate)on all counts, including leadership, which means that Ofsted have no faith in the leaderships ability to bring about improvement.

There are lots which 'Require Improvemnt' and probably half of those which are 'Good' have had lower ratings in the last couple of years. As has been mentioned previously, lots of schools move in and out of poor ratings. They have long term, underlying problems and despite short term improvements often slip back.
The Requires Improvment schools have poor GCSE results, the children are poorly served and don't reach their potential. All of them particularly fail to serve the able, according to their Ofsteds.

I don't know if you consider this 'awful' but I would consider it unacceptable and avoid those schools if at all possible. Of course these schools still have hundreds of children in them.

TalkinPeace · 16/10/2014 22:01

Chocolate
The names of my kids school and my local school are easy to work out.
BUT
DH from his work visits lots of schools, all over the country of every type
I am his PA / bookings manager / accountant and general sounding board.
He and I discuss his strategy regularly so I have a pretty good idea what he means when he describes schools.

The school in London with cannabis growing in the shrubbery by the front door was actually a very cheery, if disorganised place.
Another school nearby he vowed never to go to again after the kids tried to steal things from him.
Both have similar results.

Hak
The thing with data is that it takes time to roll through.
The insanity at my own school was actually caused by a bad decision 4 years earlier and took a total of 7 years to sort out.
Those sort of problems dire choice of SLT appointment happen regularly in all sectors.

ChocolateWombat · 16/10/2014 22:01

Mum, so I'm trying to clarify what your views are in my mind.
Are you saying it is unfair that there are Private schools because they bestow opportunities not available to all?
Or are you saying that Private schools are a waste of money and no better than state schools?

Again,I recognise there are good and bad in both sectors.

MumTryingHerBest · 16/10/2014 22:11

*ChocolateWombat Are you saying it is unfair that there are Private schools because they bestow opportunities not available to all? I'm in the catchment for the SW Herts consortum schools, so for me state is no fairer than private.

Or are you saying that Private schools are a waste of money and no better than state schools? Far from it, I think that private are a good investment if you are looking to get into a particular school or university. Not such a good investment if you are paying for the sport or music though. I know for a fact that all the local secondaries can match this (a Lot of private kids go the boys grammar for music lessons).

ChocolateWombat · 16/10/2014 22:25

Okay. As I said before, given a Grmmar place and an Independent school place at the same time, some parents will choose the Grammar Nd some the Independent. People do value different things.
Clearly not all Independent schools are Winchester College, but if you look at the posts of happy Gardening talking about there, I think you can see that what that school offers is very different to a Grammar School. The fab results are simply a given for those boys. They go there for the other stuff. Sometimes that other stuff is hard to define exactly, but many people will pay for it.

Personally, if I had a State school offered to me that could deliver the A Level results of an Independent school, I would sacrifice the Independent school stuff. However, the sacrifice of fees would be great for me and the extras a luxury I could manage without. For some people though, they can afford those extras and place a high value on them. I don't think they are stupid or wasting their money. We all value things differently.

Some people value a big house, some holidays, some clothes, some eating out, some giving to charity, some living in a city centre etc etc.....different choices about what is important to is and therefore how we spend our money. I think its worth having a bit of empathy for the fact people make different choices and value things differently to us.

TalkinPeace · 16/10/2014 22:30

Grammar schools are only in certain pockets of the country : an utter irrelevance to most parents.

Private schools are now so far beyond the means of 75% of the population as to be an irrelevance to most parents.

FWIW DD was in Winchester having lunch yesterday and was spotting the Winchester boys.
She said half looked like Hollister models and the other half looked like uncomfortable geeks. There was nothing in between.

happygardening · 16/10/2014 22:40

smokepole selective state schools are equal to private schools academically"
Are they? The top academic schools in terms of results are all independent.

"It's exam results that matter" I accept that this might be the case for you and many others but some of are not just interested in exam results, your right it is a school but it should not just be about exam results. This is how they're educated in Singapore et al an education system I know quite a lot of knowledge about, it's not the sort of education I and others I know want for our DC's.

MumTryingHerBest · 16/10/2014 22:40

ChocolateWombat I don't have any private boarding schools near me (that I'm aware of), however, Haberdashers' Aske's and Merchant taylors, Northwood, are not exactly bottom of the barrel private schools either and they do not offer substantially more in terms of enrichment activities. However, they do have very good GCSE/A Level results and impressive university destinations.

I appreciate that I may be in a very unique situation in as much as one of the least desirable school in my area (non selective) offers Latin in the grammar stream (I say this on the basis of previous posts about how unusual this is for non selective state schools):
www.westfield.herts.sch.uk/westfield-launches-their-grammar-stream4.html

happygardening · 16/10/2014 22:46

Mum we sent our DS to a prep to enable him to pass the entrance test into the school that would knew would give him an academic, broad, and intellectually stimulating education.
If I'd only wanted stunning exam results I could have sent him to our excellent primary schools and a state super selective grammar and then I wouldn't have bothered to pay for a prep.