First post: what is wrong with considering private schools?

[dietcokeisgreat]

Dear all,

I just starting looking at mumsnet last week and joined today. Some of my work colleagues talk about it and i am thinking about options for education for my son, who is just 3 and thought i would take a look. Well, i just starting the thinking, so it is early days.
We could pay for school, or maybe not, we don't know yet. He is our first child, we are having problems getting pregnant again, so unsure if there will be more yet.

I was surprised at some really negative comments on lots of threads towards people posting for advice/ whatever about private schools. Why are they doing that? What is wrong with people thinking about different options? Or asking about a school they know that is private? Twice i read something 'well i can't pay for school' as a response. For me, its no different to whether or not people have cash for other stuff. I can't afford to live in the smarter part of town, or pay for a boarding school but that doesn't mean no one should be allowed too!

Just wondering...don't want to post something that will enrage others or be and be upset by responses ....

Thank you.

mum, I'm not sure what you're implying? I'm 45! And we have moved and lived in lots if areas around the Uk. Just because I now live in Cheshire and work in a deprived area of Gt Manc, does not mean I haven't lived elsewhere! Oh and I didn't say all schools in Herts where single sex, where did I say that? I was saying that in St Albans, there was 4 single sex state secondaries. 2 were RC, 2 not. There was an excellent mixed state comp the other side of StAlbans but we would have no chance from where we lived. That would have left a choice of those 2 good single sex schools or a failing comp.

Amber, I certainly don't think all or even most state schools are poor. I do still think that they could only offer a inferior service to the one I pay for. They can have excellent teachers and even some good facilities but they're unlikely to be able to offer the small classes and level of facilities available in the private sector. The money just isn't there.

mum I just want to pick up on a point you raised yesterday morning regarding the other thread you linked to. This mother has posted a lot hence I know about the bullying in a previous state school although he appears to be being bullied in his prep as well. Her DS is in yr 8 at prep school which appears to not be serving her DS well but he does have only 8 months to go to CE, hence me and others who've been in this situation advising her to stick it out, as moving him to another school so late in the day I personally think would be fool hardy. Secondly she feels her DS is bored in lessons IME this is common complaint of many children at prep schools as they get nearer to CE because the schools are unsurprisingly concentrating all their efforts on getting their pupils to pass it comfortably. I suspect many children feel the same as they closer to any kind of important exam.
If he had not been in his last yr I would have advised differently in fact I think I might of done on previous threads this particular mum has started around similar topics. I would give the same advise to stay put for now to a child at a state school who was in yr 11.
I am not anti state ed, neither do I think all independent schools are brilliant in fact the complete opposite. I have repeatedly said that I think there is good and bad in both sectors and that even the handful of top big names offering a completely different educational experience don't suit all. As parents we have to try and pick the school that we feel suits us and our individual DC. As I've also stated before the advantage of being able and willing to pay means that you have a wider choice when looking for the school that feels right.

NancyJones mum, I'm not sure what you're implying? I didn't imply anything, I said it outright: "the claim that all the schools were single sex, non faith state schools is not true" [this was in reference to the assumption that you were referring to St Albans].

does not mean I haven't lived elsewhere! I think I made it quite clear that this was evident to me given that I posted a link to a school in St Albans rather than a link to a school in the Manchester area.

Oh and I didn't say all schools in Herts where single sex, where did I say that?

No implied all the schools where you lived in Herts were, here:
"we lived in a Hertfordshire town with single sex state secondaries which were not catholic. One of the reasons we moved was what I perceived as lack of choice at secondary as I absolutely did not want single sex schools._* I appreciate you may have been trying to say something else, however, the way I read this is that you moved because the schools in St Albans were single sex non Catholic schools. This is the reason I posted a link to a mixed sex Catholic school.

Amber do you really think that you are able to "encourage people to think about the consequences of their actions"?
You can state ad infinitum that you think paying for education is unfair as it gives my child an advantage, that I should be looking at the bigger picture and other children, but as long as I'm convinced that I've made the right choice for my DS that I see my DS happy, thriving and getting opportunities he would not get in the state sector then I'm afraid that although I'm interested in your point of view and others who make similar comments I'm not going to change my mind. I suspect that most in my position would feel the same.

I didn't deny what I said. I just think you didn't read it properly! I said I lived in an area that had single sec schools that were not RC in response to Talkinpeace saying single sex non catholic schools don't exist outside of the major cities. I was just saying, actually they do. People fall over themselves to get into those two non RC single sex schools in StA. The RC school mentioned in your link does not have a good rep at all and it is also a faith school. As I wanted co ed mon faith, my choices in stA were limited unless I moved to the other side to try and get into Sandringham. I'm not sure why you read my post a different way.

I think the main point that needs to be made is the perception of state schools. The trouble is that some private school users seem to feel the need to justify their decision by condemning state education as a whole. I've seen a lot of that on Mumsnet over the years. And the default postion is always "can you go go private?" "My child is bright/sensitive/quiet/insert adjective of choice" - "go private" is always the suggestion.

And those of us who are happy with our children's state schools, even though they may not be perfect (what school is, except Winchester ) are always told we are exceptions, or lucky, or have low standards or are deluded - or sometimes just ignored because it doesn't fit the received position.

NancyJones I'm not sure why you read my post a different way. I apologise, I did misunderstand the point you were making.

And to illustrate the point, I could, if I wished, tell an awful story about bullying at Winchester- but I won,t. Because I don't think that one anecdote is at all typical of a whole school- still less of a sector. But that is what many people do about state education. One bad experience- the whole sector condemned.

As I'm sure you know Hak I've never said Winchester is perfect. There are some Eton Groupies on here who seem to genuinely believe it's as perfect as any school can ever be and won't hear a single criticism of it. I'm a cynic realist if nothing else, no where is perfect.
Years of horse ownership and keeping them at numerous livery yards over the years has taught me that if you can get 5 out of 6 of your "must have" list your doing incredibly well 4 out of 6 is more realistic the same IMO applied to school.

Hakluyt,these threads are always full of ridiculous anecdotes on both sides. Full of people saying a relative sent their kids private but her kids got better Alevels or that privately educated kids are rude and a bit thick or that someone their neighbour's cousins old teacher waved to once was privately educated and is now in prison!
I'm quite sure there are rude, uneducated prison dwellers from both sectors!

mum, no problem.

I know you don't HG- hence the strike through and the grin.

Nancy- the point is that everyone (usually correctly) dismisses the anecdotes about private school (although mine is recent, nasty and attributable) but the anecdotes about state schools appear to constitute data.

hak bullying I'm sure occurs at Winchester (luckily my DS2 has never been bullied) as indeed it does at all schools in both sectors (DS1 has never been bullied in the state sector or by the way experienced chair throwing I just struggle to accept this is a regular occurrence in the state sector) of course at a boarding schools bullying is very serious issue because your stuck there 24/7.
On the other side of the coin DS2 has received extraordinary standards of pastoral care from the school on a level that DS1 never received in the state sector. But the pastoral should be absolutely top notch because as I said in a boarding school the children are there 24/7 and school believes it's their responsibility to care for the whole child not just provide them with an education.

IMO those who think there school state or independent is prefect are in for a big fall, because eventually you will discover it's not and often when it's too late.

But Mumsnet is full of posters who assume that there is no bullying at private schools. And they say so in so many words. It is a widely held belief. As is the belief that state schools are overwhelmingly populated by chair throwers who only pause in their chair throwing to bully clever children.

My point is that negative anecdotes about state schools are overwhelmingly and uncritically believed-and any good ones dismissed as anomalies. And the reverse holds for the private sector.

Hakluyt the anecdotes about state schools appear to constitute data I'm not sure that was the case with KeeperOfSouls given their posts last night.

I wonder how well it would have been received it someone had posted to say that they chose a state school because all the local private primary school children were doing drugs, were badly behaved and they really wanted to keep their children away from the non English speaking "riff-raff".

I don't think chair throwing is widespread in either sector although I have seen it in once or twice but nowhere near enough for me to think it something prevalent in state schools. I think bullying happens in all schools and the good ones deal with it swiftly and effectively, again in both sectors. If we suddenly couldn't afford school and my children started at the local state school I wouldn't lose sleep worrying about whether they were being well taught if kept safe from bullies. I wouldn't start to worry about whether they'd still do well enough to go to university. I'd lament all the other stuff that they get now, that they love about their school but I wouldn't worry about their basic education at all.

AmberTheCat

Agreed. Wouldn't it be good if the whole system was transparent for "value add" statistics.

Another "theory" of mine is that the value add of many academically selective schools may be lower than that of many comprehensive schools.

Does anyone know if this data is available. Clearly independent schools don't release it to the DoE. Perhaps one could look at the VA figures for grammars vs comprehensive to compare?

As someone who worked used to work in a very high risk area and over the years has had on three or four occasions chairs tables tv kettles knives thrown at her, and been injured, by psychotic individuals, the angry, alcoholics and drug addicts etc and I'm not easily scared but it scares the shit out of me. I just find it hard to accept it happens on a regular basis in the state sector. Maybe the very odd episode but the poster up thread who implied it's was a regular occurrence I just find hard to believe.
Secondly teachers should be dealing with it 20 years ago we did but now we always get the police in.

Shouldn't not should teachers shouldn't be dealing with it.

I don't think you need put theory in inverted commas, MarriedDad - if you look at the statistics for any state schools you know and compare the VA scores for those that have a largely affluent/selective intake (look at the FSM percentage if you're not sure) against those with a poor/comprehensive intake that should tell you.

You're quite right though that there is no such objective measure for independent schools, because they don't publish data that tells you anything about this. Nor will they tell you who has been managed out or not entered for exams because it's feared that they'll affect the headline results percentages.

"Another "theory" of mine is that the value add of many academically selective schools may be lower than that of many comprehensive schools."

There is a Kent Grammar school currently in special measures despite a high 90s A*-C for that very reason.

At my DD's large, urban, non-faith primary school (with a "good" Ofsted raised after 4 years at "satisfactory) with a higher than average SEN/statemented percentage, 22% FSM: no chair throwing in either of DD's classes by any child over the 6 academic years they have been there. 1 child suspended last year for throwing a bowl in breakfast club. Bullying not an issue eithr anecdoatally or according to Ofsted. Good SEN support for DD1 once need was fully diagnosed.

But what do I know? Apparently all this is down to luck, rather than the efforts of the head, the teachers, the LA and the parents who send their kids there.

marrieddad, when the league table are published on the bbc website you can click to rearrange by value added. It makes interesting reading so yes, the info is available. My local primary tops the tables for results but falls down massively when you arrange by VA. In fairness they are dealing with lots of kids who can often read and manipulate numbers on entry to reception so they have less places to go as it where. Secondary schools can't use that excuse as their catchment is usually wider and more mixed. Although in fairness to them they are often dealing with inflated grades coming up from primary schools.