First post: what is wrong with considering private schools?

[dietcokeisgreat]

Dear all,

I just starting looking at mumsnet last week and joined today. Some of my work colleagues talk about it and i am thinking about options for education for my son, who is just 3 and thought i would take a look. Well, i just starting the thinking, so it is early days.
We could pay for school, or maybe not, we don't know yet. He is our first child, we are having problems getting pregnant again, so unsure if there will be more yet.

I was surprised at some really negative comments on lots of threads towards people posting for advice/ whatever about private schools. Why are they doing that? What is wrong with people thinking about different options? Or asking about a school they know that is private? Twice i read something 'well i can't pay for school' as a response. For me, its no different to whether or not people have cash for other stuff. I can't afford to live in the smarter part of town, or pay for a boarding school but that doesn't mean no one should be allowed too!

Just wondering...don't want to post something that will enrage others or be and be upset by responses ....

Thank you.

happy I was referring to your other son! sorry I can't remember if he's ds1 or 2! I meant that at his state comprehensive, which if I remember rightly is where one of your boys went, I assumed he would have got NC levels on his reports. And the whole level 6 business is just that.

(Sorry, 'other son' sounds as though he's somehow less important than the Winchester one, but I'm sure you know what I mean).

MustChooseASecondary, that's right.

My problem with this (and similar) threads is that "private parents" (including me) often forget that the state's obligation is to educate all children whatever their ability, motivation or background. That's really, really hard.

Speaking of 'all children'.

Dd and I had the misfortune to be hanging around at the orthodontist clinic for an hour this afternoon with only Tatler to read. Dd showed me the 3 pages of ads for girls boarding schools at the end.

I know at least two of these schools. I know how many Chinese students they have.

What did we we see? White girls. Nothing but white girls. Honourable exception being one school in Bramley.

Many institutions are pretty white, but make sure promotion all literature shows some diversity nonetheless. These schools are actually not all white, but who gets to be doing toothy grins on the photos to get parents buying in? The white girls.

I was appalled, to be honest.

Amber ask the private school teachers . There are a fair few helicopter parents that I know at local private schools who seem to take an inordinate amount of the teachers' time by email or verbally discussing or querying the finer points of their progeny's education. Even in the private sector those strategies may result in an advantage for their DCs but that does n't necessarily translate to general advantage.
I am afraid that as a non helicopter MC parent if my DCs were exposed to inadequate resources or teaching I would have little time or spare energy to take on the school system (state or private). If I had a choice I would move them, if not I would sort out major teaching issues with back- up outside tutoring. Good teachers and school managers are a limited resource, there are n't enough to for all schools whatever parental input is.

Do private schools have targets?

These used to bug me to bits, surely for an ordinary able child their target for teaching should be an A or A* not just to be happy with a C.
My ds1 was not the brightest ad got 10GCSE's all C's and a couple of business equivalents. There were a couple of subjects he was quite able to achieve a B and in one subject A.
I believe this didn't happen because he was given C's as targets.
This was a while ago but the main reason I believe targets to be useless and unhelpful not to say misleading.

I agree grovel. From my personal experience, there is real frustration with state schools having low expectations of what their students can and should be doing.

I know I am not the only one who feels patronised. It's smiles all around, the school is great, my child is doing great, the teachers are fab, it's the best of all possible worlds! Except it's not really. I've been around the block enough to know that something really isn't right here. It feels like a low target has been set, victory declared, and now we can all slap each other on the back.

The private schools give me an option, not controlled by the state, where I can find a set of standards that I respect. The only problem is that not everyone can access them. As a society, I think we are still better off to have them than not, though.

When parents are told their mediocher state school is fabulous, at least they have something of a truly high standard to compare it to. Without an example of excellence it would be even harder to hold the powers that be to account. (Before you pounce, I am well aware that not all private schools are "excellent." But some, clearly are.)

I agree low expectations are the worst thing.

We chose a school specifically that does not set a ceiling on kids expectations.

We are also in regular contact with HoY and the individual teachers(the school welcomes this).

We hope to make state school work by being pushy parents(pushing the school).

We were private for primary, but have had, ahem, a serious change in our financial situation. We actually liked some of the state secondaries better than the (non selective) privates.

Interestingly where I live they get the same grades from their kids.

Anyone else a pushy parent? we are very polite, but if we are concerned about progress/expectations we speak up.

Morerhan, about your question on private school targets, did you know that targets are not just based on previous grades but on the socio economic background of the parents ( the famous Fisher Family Trust data).

In private schools there is no need to base their targets on this info, as just by being there they know you are from top of the socio economic scale (only 7% of parents can afford private after all).

Chandon
I'd never heard of setting targets based on socio economic background. That just sounds wrong. I think it may be an excuse after the fact, but it should never set an expectation.

Can I just ask, how much does the average state secondary school get per year, per child, budget wise?

How does this compare to the average annual fee for private secondary?

MumTryingHerBest here's an example:

Tiffin Girls:

Income:
Donations: £30k
Facilities: £120k
Trips & Catering: £462k
DFE general grants: £4822k
Capital grants: £360k

So if you exclude the trips & catering you get £5.322m

Money was spent:

Staff: £3.771m on 55 teachers, 37 support staff, 7 management
Educational supplies: £156k
Trips: £281k
Exam fees: £99k
Training: £18k
Other direct costs: £73k
Maintenance: £635k
Depreciation: £413k
Cleaning: £56k
Catering: £96k
Other support costs: £160k
Bank charges: £2k
Technology: £5k
Recruitment and support: £40k
Rent and rates: £34k
Insurance: £41k
Spending: £5.456m + depreciation = £5.869m

They have 892 girls, so spending comes to £6,579/pupil.

Then Kingston Grammar, which is in the same area, fee-paying, not particularly rich, 812 pupils:

Income:
£11.543m net of £1.081m in bursaries&scholarships
Catering: £286k
Registration (fees?): £89k
Donations: £273k
Rent & trading income: £137k

Expenditure:
Staff - £7.443m on 104 teachers & Technicians, 30 premises staff, 28 admin staff, 1 nurse
Other expenditure came to £3.011m (which isn't broken down particularly clearly), plus £773k depreciation, for a total of £11.227m

So they spent £13,826 per pupil. Their fees are £16,605/year. Lunches £705/year.

So the expenditure is pretty much double for a typical London day school compared with a London grammar school.

Outside of the southeast, spending per pupil is probably closer to £10k for private schools.

AgaPanthers is right - the average spend per pupil for a state secondary school is £5671 pa.

Really interesting Aga. The difference in number of teachers and amount spent on them catches my eye.

I don't agree with the 'moral' argument against private schools. I believe people should be able to spend their own money how they want to, within the bounds of legality. I also believe parents should be able to choose to opt out of state education for their child. For some this means home schooling, for some private schooling.

However we did look (briefly) at the private schools in our area for our DC, when at nursery age and didn't like them. The state primary was the preferred choice. Now our DC is going to go to a comprehensive secondary, by choice. It just seemed to fit. I like the comprehensive ethos.

I went to a comprehensive too, but it didn't stop me doing a degree. However I think it depends on the individual schools. Some are better than others, in state and private.

AgaPanthers

Tiffin Girls: Donations: £30k

Kingston Grammar: Donations: £273k

MumTryingHerBest - I'm not really sure what side of the fence you're on - will you choose private if your ds doesn't get in to Parmiter's or Watford Grammar or settle for one of the other 'good' schools in your area? From what I can see it's a two tier system in Watford although all the schools are classed as comprehensives.
Parmiter's WD25 93% A*- C (Eng + maths)
Francis Combe Academy WD25 50% A*- C
Watford Grammar for Boys WD18 91% A* - C
Westfield Academy WD18 better than Francis Combe but average GCSE grade for high achievers is C+ whereas it's grade A for Parmiters and Watford Grammar.
This is exactly why we chose private - average GCSE grade for high achievers at my local comp is also C+.

NB I think the donations at private schools usually go towards bursaries and scholarships.

My Son's Schooll. Donations- nil.

Oops, tell a lie. The PTA made £800 last year to buy Kindles.

Oh it's a 'two tier' system here too, in that there are Grammar Schools. We really liked the comprehensive though. Quite a few have been known to choose it over the Grammars.

I'd suggest really researching the schools very well to see if you think they would suit your child OP. I don't think there can be a general answer.

Targets are pernicious, especially when based on FFT scores. When DC transferred from selective academic (near-perfect but distant) day school to local comp in Y10, they arbitrarily rated him a D in most subjects, put him in foundation GCSE sets with a C target, despite him having never sat an assessment feeding into the Fischer Family Trust system! It took several face to face meetings and a string of e-mails to explain that they were making projections based on nothing at all.

However it was sorted out and he sat the first bunch of exams at Higher level in the summer; the teachers and teaching have generally been good, and he has settled in well.

And re Must and Aga point on per capita spending, £5671 may be a national average, but in the extreme Southwest, it's about £4,700 pa per pupil, if I remember correctly.

chandon

Thanks. I can't believe the socio economic status of parents is still used for targets.
I know they used to do this, but thought it had been scrapped now.

£800 is nothing Hakluyt - there's a girls' Catholic comprehensive school (state school) in South London that 'invites' all parents to donate £30 pm to help pay for 'extras' - they aim to raise £250,000 pa.

"£800 is nothing Hakluyt"

That was rather my point!

Clavinova MumTryingHerBest - I'm not really sure what side of the fence you're on As per a previous post:

MumTryingHerBest - happygardening Ar does it come down to where you live, your expectations, your individual children?- personally I think it is a combination of all three TBH.

In terms of whether I will go private, the answer is no. I have looked at Merchant Taylors etc. And I was not convinced that my DS will perform so much better there that it would warrant the financial spend. Again I emphasis his interests at this point in time are Maths and ICT. I think his interests in these areas can be met at pretty much all the schools in the area TBH.

I won't get Watford Boys (nor would I choose it even if it was an option as I don't want single sex). I won't get Parmiters or St Clement Danes due to distance etc. I looked at Bushey Academy and it will be one of my options as will Rickmansworth and Queens (at this point in time, results day next year might bring about a rethink in terms of the order of preference). I am still undecided regarding Westfield but given they have had their first success at sending a DC to Oxford and the fact that their grammar stream is run in conjunction with the boys grammar, I will be visiting the school next year with a view to making a decision (The school is being rebuilt so I see no point in viewing it this year as it would be unfair to base a decision on a building site).

Hakluyt Oops, tell a lie. The PTA made £800 last year to buy Kindles. we made £15,000 (primary school).