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Original poster

4+ with no tutoring... doomed?

64 replies

caracaralina · 20/09/2014 20:12

My DD is due to sit the 4+ for a few ridiculously oversubscribed North London independents (and St Albans girls too). She's obviously a totally amazing 3.5 year old - happy, crazy, loving, imaginative, funny. But she's in a v laid back state nursery and I am a bit ð??® by the idea of tutoring so young so in practical terms doesn't know all her letters & double figure numbers, can't reliably write her own name etc. She can also be quite quiet in new situations.

We're doomed aren't we?? Anyone with recent experience of children that got into similar schools at reception? Anyone know anyone (own DC, your friend's neighbour's second cousin's colleague etc) who wasn't reading and writing/ outgoing and super confident but still got in?

Not looking for a state/ private debate tho - we're not set on private it's just both my DH and I had very happy experiences of selective private educations (which I know I'm sure would have been equally happy in good state school!!) so we are exploring our options.

TIA Thanks

OP posts:
CharlesRyder · 20/09/2014 21:40

It would be the 'chatting in new situations scenario I would target for practise.'

My perfectly bright DN didn't get through 4+ because he is shy and struggled to talk confidently at 'interview'.

Maybe practice 'finding' new objects at home and exploring what they could be. Or going to new places and encouraging independent thought about the environment- could just be a new supermarket. It would prepare her for seeming interested in the interview setting though.

Greenfizzywater · 20/09/2014 21:51

I hate to tell you this but I was in a very similar situation - bright chatty child, in laid back nursery. Got in almost nowhere. Mill Hill schools are a bit more laid back and sensible, as is St. Margaret's in Hampstead.

RandomMess · 20/09/2014 21:54

If your dd isn't a natural fit perhaps it's not the place for her??

outer · 20/09/2014 21:56

4+???

FOUR plus?

Wow.

dementedma · 20/09/2014 21:59

What outer said! They have interviews at 4?

OutDamnSpot · 20/09/2014 21:59

I am in no way opposed to selective education but I struggle to feel confident that assessment at such a young age can measure much more than personality and/or parental pushy-ness.

I have 3 DC, two are at school. Dc1 would have passed the assessments I know about, dc2 failed (shyness, fear of getting it wrong, struggles in new situations) BUT now I would say DC2 is probably the brighter of them and at 6 would deal much better with the assessment situation.

Is there any scope for accessing private education later, at 7 or 11 for example? Time might be all she needs.

MrsMcRuff · 20/09/2014 22:02

I know, outer. I was (naively it seems) surprised to learn from another thread that there was a 7+. But 4? Shock

Original poster
caracaralina · 20/09/2014 22:04

Thanks v much for your replies, good advice CharlesRyder. We so generally spend our days getting out and about and chatting.

I suspect you might be right RandomMess, though both DH and I were quiet fairly introverted children who both flourished in schools similar (one the same) as the ones we are sitting DD for. Obviously that was quite some time ago. As a parent you just want to do what's right by your children, and it's hard to see past your own experience.

Uh oh sorry to hear that greenfizzywater! What happened next for you and your DC?? Tell me there's a happy ending!

Our local state primaries are also good so we are not committed to going down the private route.

OP posts:
Original poster
caracaralina · 20/09/2014 22:06

Cross posted! I know, I know re 4+. It's basically to work out how or take on reception kids. It's all total madness and I wasn't going to get sucked in, but I have been.

Yes, outdamnspot, 7+ or 11+ may be the way forward as at least by the we'll know properly what kind of school she will be happiest in (and it may not be private).

OP posts:
Tractorandtree · 20/09/2014 22:15

Ds1 did a '4+' for a much less intense school than the ones you're looking at but in case it's any help there they were looking for children who were naturally bright/curious not those who had been taught letters/numbers by rote. They expected the dc to recognise their own name but not necessarily write it. They did some memory games (eg put items out on a table and take one away and ask what was missing), some pattern games (red/yellow/red what comes next type thing), read a story with them and discussed it/asked them questions about it. Got them to draw a picture and talk about it.

I didn't do much prep with ds, we did go through some activities with patterns etc, spot the difference puzzles etc so he understood what they were about if he got asked them but that was all.

Ds1 was also shy and initially he didn't want to go with the teacher so I was allowed to go to the first stage (where they encouraged them to play with some toys) and then the teacher chatted to ds and he was then quite happy to leave me. Tbh some of the schools I looked at have me the impression that if the child was upset/ill/reluctant to leave their parent then the child wouldn't be successful and there wasn't any leeway to do it on another day or anything. That personally totally put me off whereas the approach of ds1's school (which he got into and loves) was so much more geared to the individual child and the fact they're only 3.5ish when they do it.

RandomMess · 20/09/2014 22:24

I would go for it and just see what happens, they will boot a whole lot out later on as not achieving highly enough. It's bizarre isn't it that what they look for at 4 isn't really an indicator of achievement by 11.

Ticklemonster897 · 20/09/2014 22:32

I can't believe any test at 4 could correctly predict the highest achieving children aged 16/18.

It all depends on so much. How confident/comfortable the child is in new situations, how well they slept the night before, if they had to rush to interview, if they are hungry, if they have been trained up to read/write ..

Iggly · 20/09/2014 22:35

Isn't the 4+ just to weed check out the parents to avoid any undesirables?

SanityClause · 20/09/2014 22:43

DD1 is very bright, and predicted all A* for GCSEs. She was on the waiting list at 4+, behind other girls who, we now know, are nowhere near as bright. Luckily, a place did come up for her.

OTOH, DD2 is not as bright as DD1 (still bright, though), and is dyslexic. She sailed through the 4+.

I think you'll find it's a bit of a lottery, whether you've had tutoring, or not.

morethanpotatoprints · 20/09/2014 22:46

Do people really put their dc through 4+ what are they thinking.
What about the children Grin
I think if you want to go for testing at such a young age then I should imagine you'd need a tutor.

PiqueABoo · 20/09/2014 23:06

"I can't believe any test at 4 could correctly predict the highest achieving children aged 16/18."

Good, because they can't and this is well established by the kind of science the education world typically ignores in favour of ideology. They will pick up some high natural potential, but they're measuring nurture at least as much as nature at that age.

GregorSamsa · 21/09/2014 00:04

We entered our youngest dd for 4+ at South Hampstead High because we'd just moved into the area and missed the cut-off date for primary applications for state schools. She was at a spectacularly child-led and laid back nursery, and was quite a quirky and opinionated child, but def not advanced in terms of sitting still, doing what she was told or having acquired trad school-based skills. We did no practice for tests- she could recognise her name in print, but that was it.

She did get offered a place, but mercifully by the time that came through she'd been offered a reception place in a state school (not one of the legendarily over-subscribed ones) so we took that instead. We've never regretted it, and she's now about to move to secondary.

So yes, it is possible to get a place with no preparation, but if you're the kind if parent who likes laid back nurseries and hasn't done preparation out of school, then it might be worth thinking carefully about whether a pushy super selective school is actually what you really want.

Rabbitcar · 21/09/2014 06:55

Don't tutor for the 4 plus, I don't think you can even prep them yourself, as they will do whatever they feel like on the day.

DD1's friend passed the 4 plus to NLCS and was then 'encouraged' to leave at 11. DD1 didn't get in at 4, but was then offered a 50% scholarship at 11 (we didn't accept the offer in the end). So don't worry if the 4 plus doesn't work out; it ultimately means very little.

tobysmum77 · 21/09/2014 08:12

You see its interesting if it comes down to the ability to wow at interview dd1 at 4 would have aced it. But are the confident, articulate ones who enjoy talking bollocks and regurgitating random facts at 4 really the academic elite? I doubt it. ....Wink

The whole thing makes me shudder and I have no idea at all op!

MyGastIsFlabbered · 21/09/2014 08:26

I honestly thought this was going to be a joke thread...tutoring at 4???? What about kids being kids at that age? I truly despair sometimes.

Coolas · 21/09/2014 08:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Heels99 · 21/09/2014 08:35

I do know children who were accepted at 4 but then asked to leave and find a different school during the reception year as they weren't showing signs of being academic enough to progress go the school. G also know kids who were rejected at 4. All these went on to be happy go less academically demanding schools with wider range of pupils, still go independent sector

Heels99 · 21/09/2014 08:36

But coolas, he there are 200 appliant and 20 places the school has to assess go some way.

tobysmum77 · 21/09/2014 08:55

heels they could just whack the prices up instead. demand and supply. ... I think that is morally better! !!!!

AmberTheCat · 21/09/2014 08:58

I share Iggly's suspicion that any selection process at 4 is really about sussing out whether the parents are 'PLU'. Yuck.

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