Faith schools and covert selection

[mummybear701]

I've had a few discussions with people at both my childrens old RC primary school and the one they are moving to this term that they have been accused of using covert selection 'to favour middle class families'. Has anyone else experienced this? At our old school the only criteria I was aware of was committment to the religion of the school (ie attending church), and a limited number of non faith pupils were admitted (so less open door than the local non-denom primary). The school seemed very well led, good discipline, with happy and well achieving pupils but there are many explanations for this. Good leadership, small class sizes, religion synonymous with moral values and hard work. Free school meals was in line with national average and slightly below that of the non denom primary in our catchment. Exclusions proportionally higher in RC school.

Exactly so, Devora. If all this happens under full media glare, imagine what goes on where no one is watching!

Devora One street, three schools. If faith had not been a selection criteria, they would have shared a mix of affluent and desperately poor children, they could have shared their resources far more equitably among these children and helped narrow the gaps between them.

Just so I can be clear on this, you are suggesting that there no poor families of faith?

In an ideal world yes. However, I sincerely doubt that would have happened. Unless, of course the two more desirable schools were under subscribed or their academic achievements plummeted. My personal thoughts are that without the faith criteria to give people the advantage of gaining a place the scramble would have started to outbid each other on house prices to get the distance advantage. After all, I will guarantee that the vast majority of parents choosing those schools do so on the back of the published academic results rather than on the basis of it being a faith school.

Also bear in mind that many of those who can afford to buy into the property/distance advantage will also be able to opt for private if they don't like the way things are going. As a last resort they will simply move to a more desirable area.

These are all things I am personally seeing happen in an area with a number of high performing schools, non of which are faith schools.

Again, I'm more than happy to see the faith criteria removed to see if the claims that this will, as so many people claim, bring about a more balanced demographic intake.

Proposed changes to the admissions code include allowing admission authorities to prioritise children in receipt of the pupil premium. I will be interested to see how many faith schools adopt this.

The problem in cities such as London which Devora describes is not strictly economic, but is more to do with a transient population, which is usually less well-off than stable families who are able to worship regularly. That's without the stipulation some schools have about being baptised within a certain amount of time after birth.

"you are suggesting that there no poor families of faith?"

Of course she isn't. She is suggesting that no matter how deep their faith, they cannot get into the faith schools because they don't meet the criteria.

Many oversubscribed faith schools are only allowing in people who have attended weekly services, at particular churches, for a set number of years, so the most devout refugee doesn't stand a chance.

Some oversubscribed RC schools are demanding baptism before 6 months, so the many devout Polish families (for example) don't stand a chance because early baptism is not the practice in their country.

These schools might not be like the ones in your area, and might be mostly in London, but these sorts of policies are spreading as more and more schools become oversubscribed.

No, this is another semantic issue

If by catchment you mean the distance for the last child admitted schools are not required to publish this information but they should supply it on request. I agree it would be useful if all schools published the category and distance for the last child (where relevant - some don't use distance as a tie breaker).

Polish families don't stand a chance because early baptism is not the practice in their country

I can't find an authoritative source to back this up. I understand that there is plenty of evidence that in the 19th and early 20th centuries babies in Poland were normally baptised within a week of birth. It is, of course, possible this has changed but Catholic Canon law which requires baptism as soon as possible after birth remains the same.

icecreamsoup

www.hertsad.co.uk/news/appeals_over_pupil_allocations_at_st_albans_faith_school_1_3584189

Thought this might be of interest. This is an area not too far from where I am.

I spoke to a mum some months back regarding the school her elder DD was moving on to. She commented on how many children had been allocated the same faith school as her DD (not the one mentioned in the link above I should add) and did not practice the faith.

Yep, MumTryingHerBest, that's another problem, and it's not confined to Catholic schools - I could cite similar examples from other faiths. The whole system is a mess because politicians think they are creating choice by creating lots of different types of faith schools, when actually they're severely reducing choice by lowering surpluses at the same time, forcing more and more people into schools that aren't of their choosing.

Prh: "I can't find an authoritative source to back this up"
I've only seen anecdotal evidence. Whether it's Canon Law or not is irrelevant - in my view UK state schools shouldn't be using Canon Law to restrict admissions any more than they should be using Sharia Law.

What I find most interesting about this school, and I would guess it's the real reason why parents are objecting to the allocation of places there is this:

file:///C:/Users/Carmel-acer/Downloads/137938__2.PDF

If this school is allocating places to children outside of the faith, I think it is fair to say it is under subscribed. I am fairly confident that the intake is not be predominantly white, English, middle class families.

The information given by the Fair Admissions Campaign is:

Percentage selected by religious means: 100%
Requires baptism: Yes
Requires practice: No
In line with its local area in terms of eligibility for free school meals.
School percentage: 9.57%
Local area percentage: 7.16%
In the 10% most inclusive on the basis of English as an additional language.
School percentage: 21.60%
Local area percentage: 8.03%

So what makes this faith school so unique? Could it be it's academic performance? If the faith criteria for this school is removed do you think that any of the above will change significantly for this school?

icecreamsoup when actually they're severely reducing choice by lowering surpluses at the same time this school has surplus, parents just don't want it. What makes this school so less desirable than a number of other faith schools in the local area? It is purely down to parents wanting access to only the best performing schools. They have every right to want this. However, simply removing the faith criteria will certainly not provide that in this instance.

"If the faith criteria for this school is removed do you think that any of the above will change significantly for this school?"

No, it won't. Schools like the one in your example buck the trend, but that doesn't mean that the trend doesn't exist.

icecreamsoup No, it won't. Schools like the one in your example buck the trend, but that doesn't mean that the trend doesn't exist - then I assume you can provide an example of a low performing faith school that doesn't "buck the trend"?

"One street, three schools. If faith had not been a selection criteria, they would have shared a mix of affluent and desperately poor children, they could have shared their resources far more equitably among these children and helped narrow the gaps between them.

Just so I can be clear on this, you are suggesting that there no poor families of faith?"

No. Because the criteria for these schools do not select on the basis of faith. They select on the basis of going through certain rituals that are taken to indicate faith. Which in many cases, is pure pantomime. I have no doubt that many of the poor families have faith, but they won't have done three years voluntary work at one particular church, and that is what counts.

Devora I look forward to the day that the removal the faith criteria brings about the huge demographic changes that you feel will come about.

No need to put words in my mouth, MTHB, and no need to take that tone. I am perfectly politely pointing out how faith schools work against the public good in some areas. You may disagree, but it would be better if you engaged with what I actually said rather than knock down a straw man of your own creation.

" then I assume you can provide an example of a low performing faith school that doesn't "buck the trend"? "

No, you're missing the point. It bucks the trend by being a relatively low performer compared to others in its areas. The trend is for faith schools to be relatively high performers.

High performing schools attract well-organised families like magnets, and low performing schools repel them - I think we can all agree on that. It's true for any type of school, not just faith schools, and, as I've said all along, those pressures will still exist if faith criteria are dropped from admissions policies. We're talking about stripping away just one of the layers of complexity in admissions, not all of them.

To be clear Devora I was referring to this:

If faith had not been a selection criteria, they would have shared a mix of affluent and desperately poor children, they could have shared their resources far more equitably among these children and helped narrow the gaps between them.

And what part of that was wrong?

Devora - And what part of that was wrong? - I didn't say it was wrong, I said I look forward to the day it happens.

You were saying earlier that wealthier families will always create their own enclaves - if they can't do it by faith, they will do it by moving close to desirable schools. Which is of course true to a certain extent. But in the example I gave, the area was already highly desirable, kind of impossible to get posher (ok, it was Kensington High Street) so the poshos were getting nowhere. Very few 'ordinary' families there, but there was this transient immigrant population. I don't believe the posh families would have abendoned the schools without the faith criteria, because frankly they would still have been largely occupied by wealthy families. But it would make a great deal of difference to the poor kids.

You can defend that by suggesting I'm a naive idealist, but really that's one step away from just shrugging and saying, "The poor will always be with us."

Devora I don't believe the posh families would have abandoned the schools without the faith criteria, because frankly they would still have been largely occupied by wealthy families. But it would make a great deal of difference to the poor kids.

However, those poor kids would not be able to afford private tutors and the like. How would this affect the wonderful academic performance the parents are so attracted to?

Perhaps the wealthy families at those schools don't use private tutors and the academic achievements are purely down to the exceptional, natural academic ability of those children at the school or possibility down the amazing teaching and resources the school provides.

"However, those poor kids would not be able to afford private tutors and the like. How would this affect the wonderful academic performance the parents are so attracted to? "

C'est la vie. It's still the right thing to do, and I think you know that.

England is one of only 4 countries in the OECD to allow school selection by faith criteria. The others are Estonia, Ireland and Israel. In other countries it is illegal.

icecreamsoup - It's still the right thing to do, and I think you know that. I most certainly do.

I also think it is wrong to allow schools to select on the basis of religion for the same reasons I think it would be wrong to select on the basis of colour or ethnic background etc. Companies are not allowed to employ someone on the basis of faith (with the exception of those jobs where the requirement is detrimental to the role e.g. being a priest). Therefore why should state schools be able to utilise the faith criteria when their primary role is to educate children, which in my mind is a role that is unlikely to be adversely affected by the faith of that child.

However, I do feel the reason that the Fair Admissions Campaign is presenting as the basis for which the faith criteria should be removed is fundamentally flawed. The exact same distortion of demographics can be found at the majority of high performing schools across the country irrespective of their admissions criteria.

Well I'm glad we're in agreement on the fundamentals then!

I think you're right that a similar socio-economic heat map could be produced for high performing schools, but as I said before the high performance is likely to be as much the result of the socio-economic selection as it is the driver for it .

For the Fair Admissions Campaign to continue to make political headway they need as many hard stats as possible, rather than just principles. As I've said a few times, it's never easy to separate out individual drivers in complex systems - ask any weather forecaster about that. The FAC study is probably about as close as its possible to get to isolating the socio-economic effect of faith based selection, although if you can think of a better method I'm sure they'd be happy to hear it.

icecreamsoup This is not an allocation process I would necessarily want to be introduced to my area, however, I wonder how the demographics compare for those schools that use a lottery/names out of a hat allocation process. Actually are there any schools that actually do this? I'm not sure why but I had it in my mind that there are such schools but I may be mistaken.

Mumtryingherbest, I understand an LA-wide lottery system is used in the Brighton area. Some individual schools use it elsewhere, and others use banding systems.

All methods have their own controversies and debates though.