Faith schools and covert selection

[mummybear701]

I've had a few discussions with people at both my childrens old RC primary school and the one they are moving to this term that they have been accused of using covert selection 'to favour middle class families'. Has anyone else experienced this? At our old school the only criteria I was aware of was committment to the religion of the school (ie attending church), and a limited number of non faith pupils were admitted (so less open door than the local non-denom primary). The school seemed very well led, good discipline, with happy and well achieving pupils but there are many explanations for this. Good leadership, small class sizes, religion synonymous with moral values and hard work. Free school meals was in line with national average and slightly below that of the non denom primary in our catchment. Exclusions proportionally higher in RC school.

BarbaraPalmer - nope, busy urban area, lots of schools.
lots of faith schools in fact, but oddly it's only the high achieving ones that have all the hoo-haa about attendance criteria. And dropping the faith criteria will remove all the hoo-haa?

I am guessing that all the schools in the area are heavily over subscribed including the school with the lowest academic achievements?

One of our local schools requires a copy of the child's birth certificate despite this also going to the LA. I personally think that could be misused (parents nationality, single mothers, parents occupation etc).

If anyone thinks admissions policies of church schools are illegal, ie, not in spirit of the Admissions code, you can raise this with the OSA. It has to be done before the end of June though.

Quite a few church schools still prioritise children from their own nurseries. That is also against the code I think.

I also find it highly suspect that it is damn near impossible to find out the distance criteria from church schools. They say this is private, or against data protection or something. I have never understood this. Also parish maps these are never freely available, for one school we looked at the only copy was hanging on the wall of the school office!

I thought about contacting the OSA about one school, which also has 'miscellaneous' church activities as proof of faith a bit like the Oratory. However, we are moving away and I didn't think I could manage the Admin alongside other stresses. I wish I had clocked this in advance of our application though! Might have given some of us a better chance at a local school place...

mumtryingherbest I've been waiting a decade for the scandal. It never comes. Probably for the same reasons I am not going to let you know the schools in question. We are a tight knit community. While I don't have children in those schools, I know children in them since birth and have deep bonds with the families. My "skin in the game" is their "skin in the game" iyswim.

I marvel that ofsted doesn't ever look closely at this stuff. But then Brompton Oratory has been an open secret for years. If they can blatantly get away with it, why not everyone else?

Perhaps the Trojan Horse fiasco is a sea change regarding faith in schools generally...

hah! as if!
not all religions are equal, doncha know!

Mumtryingherbest: "How do the demographics compare to those who are practising the faith in the local area? If the majority of families attending church on a weekly basis are predominantly white middle class families and the intake criteria requires them to do just this then of course the demographics will show this"

Yes, of course it will, and that's why a school that selects on those criteria will have more of that demographic. And if others who wouldn't normally go to church decide they want to go to a school with that social make-up, and start attending church, then the admissions become even more skewed, and if it is oversubscribed (as many are) then the less organised families who don't meet the criteria are pushed out. That is exactly the problem.

"I can't see any mention of the academic performance of the various schools (if you have a link I would very much appreciate it)."

The FAC heat map covers all faith primaries in the country that have faith-based selection criteria, and compares their socio-economic make-up with neighbouring schools.

Performance data is available elsewhere online for individual schools if you want it, but isn't included in the FAC study because it isn't relevant.

"I can assure you that the demographics of those attending the local non ranked schools differ very differently from those of the academically selective schools."

I think here you're talking about selective grammar schools, rather than faith schools, yes? As I said before, that's a separate debate.

"The performance of the school can have a significant impact on the demographics."

As I said before, the (socio-economic) demographics can have a significant impact on the performance, and as soon as the performance starts to look slightly better than other local schools, that skews the demographics further. It's self-reinforcing.

"How have these demographics changed at these schools over the last 5 to 10 years, a period which has seen a marked increase in pressure on school places? The outcome of which will see people going through the motions to tick boxes on a form in order to get their DC into a good performing local school. This is not caused by the faith criteria, it is caused by the pressure on school places."

Yes, the pressure on school places (which is increasing, and will continue to increase as there is a national drive to reduce surpluses) is bringing the problem to a head. If people have a lot of choice they don't mind so much that they can't get into one or two of their local schools quite so much as if they have no choice at all and can see that others do have choice at their expense.

"How does this research map onto the rise in house prices closest to those schools?"

As I said, it is comparing schools with those that are in the same area.

"I would imagine many families are researching the admissions criteria and ticking the boxes to get their children into their preferred school. This has nothing to do with faith but everything to do with the parents doing whatever it takes to get their child into the school they view most favourably"

Yes, which is why it is an arbitrary system for admissions which skews the demographics.

"not so sure I understand how the faith criteria results in a better academic performance. perhaps you can enlighten me on how the faith criteria improves the academic performance of a school? Are children of faith naturally brighter?"

Of course not. You misinterpreted me. I meant that the academic performance tends to be a product of the socio-economic selection, not the faith selection.

"and schemes which encourage the most able teachers into schools that need extra support. such as prioritising children of staff over and above local children in way of a recruitment incentive"

No, that achieves the opposite - it encourages the most able teachers into schools that are already doing well, rather than the ones that need extra support.

"I am guessing that all the schools in the area are heavily over subscribed including the school with the lowest academic achievements?"

Mumtrying, I don't know which area BarbaraP was talking about, but certainly in London all of the good schools are oversubscribed, and many of the improving schools are filled up with people who don't get into the good schools - usually people who are pushed to the back of the queue because they don't meet faith criteria. In fact in some (more affluent) areas the improving schools are deliberately over-filled (a bit like overbooking flights) because LAs rely on people who don't get any of their six choices scraping the financial barrel to go private instead.

That experience will become more widespread as LAs come under even more pressure to reduce surpluses.

GoldiandtheBears I also find it highly suspect that it is damn near impossible to find out the distance criteria from church schools. They say this is private, or against data protection or something. I have never understood this. Also parish maps these are never freely available, for one school we looked at the only copy was hanging on the wall of the school office! Will admit my complete ignorance here. I was not aware that the allocation of faith school places completely bypassed the LAs.

Are faith schools exempt from outlining their admissions criteria in the public domain? Again a genuine question.

Am I right in saying therefore, that should someone go through the appeals process to gain a place at a faith school, the faith school can refuse to provide information regarding distance allocations etc. when requested?

These are new to me and would certain give good reason to object to them.

MumTryingHerBest, there are different types of faith school, but it is the Voluntary Aided schools that tend to be most selective. They are their own admissions authorities. They still have to follow the admissions code, but unfortunately that doesn't extend to mandating publication of information about catchment.

They say this is private, or against data protection or something

They cannot tell you who the list child admitted was but they should tell you the distance for the last child admitted. If a school refuses make a Freedom of Information request. If they still refuse refer them to the ICO.

Also parish maps these are never freely available

The Admissions Code frequently refers to the need to be clear. Referring to parishes without telling parents where the boundaries lie fails to meet that requirement. As there have been cases where the school and the church have disagreed over the boundary it is important this information is available.

I was not aware that the allocation of faith school places completely bypassed the LAs

It does not. The school receives a list of applicants from the LA and places them in order using their admission criteria. They then send the sorted list back to the LA who figure out which offers will actually be made.

Are faith schools exempt from outlining their admissions criteria in the public domain?

No they are not. Their admissions criteria must appear on their website and will also be included in the LA's composite prospectus.

should someone go through the appeals process to gain a place at a faith school, the faith school can refuse to provide information regarding distance allocations etc. when requested

No it cannot. The school must answer any questions you ask within reason to help you prepare your appeal. And the appeal panel would not be happy if the school failed to include the distances for the last applicant and the appellant in the appeal paperwork if the child had missed out on the basis of distance.

doesn't extend to mandating publication of information about catchment

Yes it does. A catchment area is part of the school's admission arrangements. It must therefore be consulted on, determined and published just like the rest of the admission arrangements.

prh:"Yes it does. A catchment area is part of the school's admission arrangements. It must therefore be consulted on, determined and published just like the rest of the admission arrangements."

No, this is another semantic issue Prh. you are referring to catchment as a legally defined catchment, but I'm not. I'm referring to catchment as the result of an admissions policy - the area from which a school draws its children.

Obviously the school defines a catchment as part of its admissions criteria then it needs to be published.

"If a school refuses make a Freedom of Information request. If they still refuse refer them to the ICO."

As Prh says, it is a lot of work to get the information out of them, but it can be done. It would be better if it was routinely published. Some LAs gather the info and publish it routinely, but others don't.

"The school receives a list of applicants from the LA and places them in order using their admission criteria. They then send the sorted list back to the LA who figure out which offers will actually be made."

The Supplementary Information Form (containing info on church attendance, baptism etc) only goes to the school, not the LA. It is the school that does the "controversial" bit of ranking people according to their faith criteria. So, it's not a complete bypass of the LA, but it does bypass the LA for the significant part of the process.

Friends locally have described their interviews with the priest that are part of getting a place at the RC primary school. They found it probing and a little intimidating. I am not sure anyone would feel comfortable "demanding" information the school didn't want to give. They would worry they were getting on the wrong side of the entity with the power to decide.

Holidaypacking: "If they are going to take 90% of their funding from the state..."

They get more than that. They get 100% of their running costs, which is by far the largest proportion (about 93%) of total costs on average.

They do have to cover 10% of their capital costs, so approx 0.7% of the total costs.

The Catholic Education Service says it puts about £20M into its schools each year (can't find the figure online now, sorry, but it used to be on their website), which works out at about £25 per pupil, and tends to be fully covered by voluntary parental contributions.

That's leverage the investment banks can only dream of!

*icecreamsoup - They get more than that. They get 100% of their running costs, which is by far the largest proportion (about 93%) of total costs on average.

They do have to cover 10% of their capital costs, so approx 0.7% of the total costs.

The Catholic Education Service says it puts about £20M into its schools each year (can't find the figure online now, sorry, but it used to be on their website), which works out at about £25 per pupil, and tends to be fully covered by voluntary parental contributions.*

Out of interest, how does this compare to other state selective schools? Genuine question as not something I've ever looked into.

MumTryingHerBest, grammar schools (which only exist in a few areas that strongly resisted attempts to abolish them in the Seventies), are fully funded by the state.

However, any school can raise voluntary contributions, including grammar schools. Schools with wealthier cohorts tend to ask for bigger donations.

HolidayPackingIsHardWork the faith schools in your area to operate very differently to those in the area I grew up and the area I know live in. Very intrigued as to where exactly these schools are.

Out of interest, are your friends trying to get their children into the horrendous schools you have described because they only have faith schools in the area?

mumtrying. These schools are the best academically in the area. The high school is considered as good as private without the fees.

Their children are all in now.

HolidayPackingIsHardWork mumtrying. These schools are the best academically in the area.

Now why am I not surprised. Yet everyone still maintains that the faith criteria is to blame for the unbalanced demographics at the school. Of course it is nothing to do with parents playing along to get their DCs into a high performing school.

I suppose the only way to find out if removing the faith criteria will make a jot of difference to the intake demographics is to remove it. It would be interesting to see how many schools then look to reintroduce the criteria if they are then indeed able to demonstrate that it made no difference what so ever to the demographics.

icecreamsoup - grammar schools (which only exist in a few areas that strongly resisted attempts to abolish them in the Seventies), are fully funded by the state. I didn't mention grammar schools. BTW there are no grammar schools in the area I live.

"Friends locally have described their interviews with the priest that are part of getting a place at the RC primary school."

I thought interviews were not allowed as part of the admissions procedures for state funded schools?

"Of course it is nothing to do with parents playing along to get their DCs into a high performing school."

It is everything to do with that. They are using the faith criteria to leapfrog others that live closer. The people who live closer are forced out in the opposite direction.

In my area large black holes for community admissions are opening up. Only churchgoers can get places a reasonable distance from home.

"I didn't mention grammar schools"

You said "other state selective schools", which I took to mean academically selective, i.e. grammar schools. If not, then what type of school are you talking about?

MumTryingHerBest, my last home was a flat on a busy London street in a very affluent area. Three schools on roads adjoining this street. Two were faith schools, Ofsted outstanding, very very middle class, Cameron and Gove sent their children to one of them. Local posh parents loved these schools: "It's just like prep school, but you don't have to pay!" I was told. But they had to do serious church-cleaning, flower-decorating duty to get in there - and not just at any church, but at the right church.

The third school always had spare places. it was the furthest from me but the one we would have got into. It served children from local transient refugee communities, nearly all of whom could not speak English and many of whom were traumatised, having recently arrived from wartorn countries. The school certainly added value, raising the children from well below the average when they started school, to somewhat below average when they left. The school also suffered from not having a busy and affluent PTA - it was noticeably smaller, shabbier, less IT equipment, fewer toys.

One street, three schools. If faith had not been a selection criteria, they would have shared a mix of affluent and desperately poor children, they could have shared their resources far more equitably among these children and helped narrow the gaps between them. As it was, the two faith schools seemed very happy with their "just like prep school" image and not to serve the traumatised, under-privileged children living in their community. And clearly, when you're a newly arrived refugee, speaking no English and struggling just to survive, you're not going to have done your three years at sunday school with regular flower-arranging for the church, are you?

I don't think all faith schools are like this, but those two should hang their heads in shame. And the fact that both Cameron and Gove like to crow that their children attend state schools - when these particular state schools are unlike any other in the country - makes me feel even sicker.