Is there anyone on mumsnet with sons/nephews/close friends at BOTH Eton and Winchester ...?

[TRL]

As title says, is there anyone who has sons or close contacts with both schools. We have offers from both for Sept 2016 and are really floundering in deciding between them. Am very happy to PM you if I know who to PM...?!?

I have read many threads where people extol the virtues of one or other but I'd really like some compare/contrast advice from someone in a position to see the differences ... if any ... suspect lots?!

Thank you

Yes, Zero, I thought that yesterday. I was also wondering whether Dr T would be replaced by an OE ...?! When will Dr T's successor be announced do you think?

I too wonder when DT T's successor will be announced. I think knowing the direction the school wants to go in is that it will be a similar appointment to the newish head at St Pauls: an academic but with international connections. Could be wrong but that's where my money is.
I don't think the "perceived gulf between the two will narrow" they are very different schools with different agendas/visions both are over subscribed (so why change it if it works) and I think both do appeal to different parents. Win Coll parents want an intellectual, very academic education. Most I meet (admittedly rarely) are not interested in rowing lakes, manicured playing fields, single rooms or loos. They don't want a brand they like it because it's not like others, they like it's peace and quite, it's unworldliness and it's quirkiness.

My DS was at Eton (until recently). He had two cousins at Winchester. All of the boys loved school and flourished. I'm convinced that they would have done equally well if they had swapped schools.

There are so many lazy generalisations about these schools. Winchester is a dreamy, academic hothouse which can happily accommodate geeks. Eton is apparently a more full-on, sporty, competitive environment. Etc.

Loads of Eton boys live a "Wykehamist" life at Eton and loads of Wykehamists live an "Etonian" life at Winchester. My guess is that the vast majority of boys at both schools would be very happy at the other.

I do accept that a retiring, shy 13 year old might prefer his first year at Winchester because Eton's approach to new boys is fairly robust (some would say "sink or swim"). Thereafter both schools let their boys choose their own paths.

Oh I don't know HG..... I would be very surprised if any successful Head Teacher didn't bring some of their own ethos and upbringing with them.

I would say that under the current Eton head there has been a rather joyful emphasis on "widening access." (I never heard anyone talking about it amongst my own generation - they only ever mentioned scholarship.) And as we saw from the CBBC programme the boys who take the trouble to apply are very much the movers and shakers of their own cohorts. Surely some of that emphasis must come from the HM's own background? (Alongside the wider social debate and pressure?)

As I'm rather keen on all Winchester has to offer (but unfortunately lack any small relative for whom it would be the most obvious choice) I'm very much hoping that the new Eton HM will arrive trailing Winchester's peace and quite, its unworldliness and its quirkiness.

"scholarships " is what I actually meant....

How strange that people seem to automatically assume that because he was a pupil at Winchester, he will therefore try to make Eton more like Winchester. As hg says, Winchester is already doing a great job at being Winchester.

Eton also does quite agood job at being Eton, too. He was a master at Eton for 8 years so I guess he understands its strengths pretty well.

I met SH when he was teaching my DS History. Quietly impressive (as is TL).

Actually grovel for once I disagree with you. Although a lot of boys would be equally happy in both, the academic education in Winchester is different from Eton and therefore develops a different academic culture and style of thinking in the boys at all levels of ability.
The ethos in Winchester seems to be that all education in year 9 to 11 is a prelude for pre Us and grounding in Div and is not focused on getting the best marks for GCSEs. Again that is applied at all levels of ability which means I suspect some boys do less well at GCSE than with a more GCSE focused approach.
Eton appears much more exam focused with extra work depending on the level of ability and enthusiasms of a boy. I also get the impression that Eton will also allow a boy who is very talented in a non academic area to prioritise that above their academic studies.
The more retiring tentative types may not be given as many opportunities to develop their powers of discussion at Eton but I imagine would cope very well at both schools.

Not quite sure what you mean by 'exam focused' summerends, it seems to me that GCSE/IGCSE exams are treated as something annoying that has to done, but that musn't be allowed to get in the way of the real learning.

In terms of the Eton ethos, I think that it aims to educate boys according to their individual abilities and interests, in the expectation that they will use that education to go out and try and change things. Obviously these days the first OEs that always spring to mind are Boris and DC, but to me it is Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall who best embodies Etonianism. Good food is his thing. He has set up a successful restaurant business and has built a proflle via his TV programmes and has then gone on to use that to promote good local produce from small suppliers, and even using wild produce. He has then gone on to try and effect change further afield, i.e. by drawing attention to the production methods of cheap supermarket chicken, right up to encouraging reform of the hideous destruction wreaked by the EU fisheries policy.

"It's not focused on getting on getting the best marks for IGCSE"
I think Winchester would like to have this approach but as increasingly universities are looking at IGSE results especially in the absence of AS grades it's having to move it's position slightly. In fact they said as much in the parents talk before the yr 11 parent teacher meeting last term.

Indrid I don't mean that Etonians spent their time being exam syllabus drilled but there was n't so much free range off syllabus teaching particularly for lower set boys. I think your description of the Eton ethos is great.

HG you may well be right but that sort of talk is often more to spur the boys to take the GCSEs seriously.

summerends, I suspect we might find ourselves in heated agreement. My only point (really directed at the OP) is that I don't think that (at 13) there is an Eton "type" and a Wykehamist "type". The vast majority at both schools would thrive at either school.

I agree that Winchester sets out to be more overtly academic than Eton in how it presents its core values (and it may well be true in practice) but an academically-minded boy will get plenty of off-piste teaching/debate/stimulation at Eton. Similarly, a boy whose main focus is sport will get plenty of opportunity at Winchester.

I'm trying to think of this from a boy's perspective.

These are just two very good schools and I hope OP won't get too uptight about her decision.

Grovel you are right! (As you usually are ).

I'm not 100% convinced that a boy whose main focus is sport will thrive at Win Coll frankly. I've spoken to a few boys who do my DS's sport all feel that they could get more opportunities to compete if they were at a different school. We know a coach who teaches this sport at another very well known boarding school and they have loads of opportunities to compete in regional and national competitions.
I know thar money allocated to some sports is not great and boys are generally not allowed to take time out of their academic lessons more than once or twice a year to go to competitions or staying over night is strongly discouraged if not even prevented.
I understand from other parents whose DS's do other sports that coaching is very patchy. Dons who over see the various sports are charming but often not overly knowledgable. The boys have also been reminded fairly recently by Dr T that they our are not at the school to do sport, the school is about "academia".
You do not send your DS to Winchester because your hoping his main focus in his life is going to be sport.

HG -- I enjoy reading your posts and have been following them with great interest as I consider whether or not to pursue boarding options for my sons. (Most likely they'll continue at day schools but I want to make an informed choice).
I expected to love Winchester, in part based on what I'd read on their website, in part based on your comments and in part based on what I'd heard from others. It seemed like the perfect school for an intellectually curious, thoughtful boy. To my surprise, I was underwhelmed when I visited and wonder whether we just saw it on a bad day or whether the reality doesn't live up to the (admittedly "sky high") profile. The boy who showed us around was unenthusiastic and struggled to come up with anything to say to our group other than to point to buildings and say "that's the library", "that's the art building", etc. Although it was a beautiful spring day, we saw few boys about no one tossing a frisbee, kicking a ball about, playing instruments in the music building, reading in the library or even huddled in groups discussing profound thoughts what do boys do on Saturdays? where do they go? We did see a few "hanging around" in the house we visited but they didn't look at all engaged in anything. My husband who boarded from the age of 8 was horrified and left wondering what was the point of sending boys to such an idyllic environment if they weren't encouraged to make use of it. I had expected one of the great strengths (other than the teaching itself) to be the life within the houses and the opportunities for interesting conversations with the HMs in the evenings etc. I was dismayed to see in the house we visited (can't remember the name) that there was no "living room" or space that would lend itself to gatherings of boys and HM for after-dinner chats. There was a tattered games room with pool table and piano and worn-out sofa (all,I'm sure, perfectly fine for teenage boys!) but it wasn't big enough for a full House meeting. The dining room reeked of stale food smells so was hardly a place for lingering chats (and possibly not even a place to eat!). And the HM himself (who is retiring) was full of what seemed like false bon homie -- trying to engage the few boys we happened to see in chit-chat as if to demonstrate he had a pals-y relationship with the boys in his charge.

On the plus side the teachers we met at lunchtime were impressive bright, engaging, interested in the boys, etc (exactly what I expected). But we were all left with an over-riding sense of dull-ness.
As I continue to read your comments, I think we must have seen an unrepresentative mix of boys and an unrepresentative house and HM. On paper, it still seems to be the ideal school for us (i.e. our boys -- though, as others have said, I'd love to go there myself!) so we will visit again next year. I have not yet visited Eton so have no view about how the two school compares (so, of course, should not be participating in this thread!).

We were completely under whelmed when we went to the schools open day many moons ago. We knew very well and had visited SPS which I'd tried to hate but loved so what we saw of Winchester on the open day was a complete disappointments. Frankly we only continued with the registration process because I'd arranged to meet a three house masters shortly after the open day and it just seemed sheer bad manners to cancel.
Even after meeting the HM's I was still slightly underwhelmed and SPS with all is logistical difficulties for us seemed like the best option. We even looked at Eton (despite my pathological loathing of ridiculous uniform). Anyway we persevered, took DS back to meet two of the HM's and this time had lunch in one of the houses with the boys. This particular HM wanted us to meet the boys so that we could see how boys from his house turned out. I sat with the U6 th. It was then that the penny started to drop, one boy in particular was just how I imagined my DS would be at this age, his whole way of being, the way he addressed me, his honesty, something I can't quite define. None went into raptures over the school, they were barely even enthusiastic, all talked honestly about it, the dons and the HM, (my DS now says the same thing about him!) the head, but three things came out of it, none wished they'd gone anywhere else, all agreed their HM was the best at choosing 12 boys who will get on and the enormous camaraderie that existed between the 12 of them. We were offered places at both schools and agonised for a whole year, surprisingly it was meeting the head (I'd been unimpressed by him before) on a sunny summer afternoon for the interview you have with him after you've been offered a place that swung it for us. Winchester College was so peaceful and beautiful, the head was gentle and encouraging to my DS, described it as not a school for "tramplers" his prep school had been and he'd hated it, we went home and politely declined the SPS place.
IMO I don't think the boys have any idea how lucky they are and how different the type of education they receive at win Coll is. I recently listened to him discussing his passion for a Shakespeare and one play in particular quoting various lines, debating a particular character with my DH, he quoted lines of poetry when we were talking about a recent conflict in Africa for a non reader this is amazing in our opinion. He talks with enthusiasm about art (always a passion) but a particular style and period discussed in Div, he's never been interested in it before in fact was rather dismissive of it previously and then the wonders the calculus are also mentioned in passing, neither my DH or I get math our eyes glaze over. Oh and much to my husbands delight he's developed an enthusiasm for opera again thanks to the Div don. This for us makes it worth every penny we are not wealthy in the grand scheme of things and live a very normal life we've choose to channel all our spare money into school fees but to hear him talking like this is for us worth every penny we spend on school fees this is what we wanted. Not all are like this many are just normal happy teenagers I don't believe that all bright children are intellectual although I suspect most intellectuals are bright. Neither do at think being intellectual makes you a better person in fact from personal experience I think it makes you a restless person always looking for something else to fill your mind. But if you have an intellectual child then a I personally don't feel they'll get a better education than that which Win Coll offer.
I'm not surprised the boy who showed you round was unenthusiastic, its so easy to take what you have for granted, we live in a very old falling down cottage we have this huge ancient fire place (that actually architecturally incorrect someones fiddled with it) everyone comes in and ooohhhhs and aaahhhs over if I don't even notice it anymore I can only see what wrong with it! The boys live in a privileged bubble, my DS can barely remember not boarding, they are so used to this life, he was surprised when the team from a visiting school started photographing the buildings around college, why would you want to photograph them? A relative was questioning him about boarding recently he couldn't really describe it as he has nothing to compare it against. But as I've recently told him it's not until we loose something that seems unimportant to is do we realise how good it was!
I've met quite a few boys over the last three years I've watched them together as a group, all ages, the enormous camaraderie that I saw at that lunch so long ago is still so obvious and many are like my DS slightly reserved (different from shy), unassuming and self effacing, most when you get to know them better are very sharp and indeed often amusing with a very dry sense of humour, they are also polite, always honest about the school but never all over you like a rash.
There are lots of good schools out there Posadas including Eton which may not be for me but I acknowledge it's a good school and I still believe that SPS is virtually in a league of its own but for us a Winchester has been all the things we hoped it would be and were told it was so very very long ago by the first person who said to us your DS is an intellectual he should go to Winchester. What it doesn't do is shout it from the roof tops. One friend looked at it "I don't like it because I can't see what I'm buying into" I have it on hood authority the school doesn't want those type of parents!
On a Saturday by the way boys are meant to go to a variety of extra curricular activities, sporting or cultural, recently my DS had not done his because he and his friends including of course many in the upper 6th are doing exams so I understand many have not been running. But I know all the rest of the year round he as an individual does his chosen sport on a Saturday afternoon. Do not underestimate how mentally and physically tiring full boarding is, how busy their lives are, many by now are exhausted, especially all those doing public exams, my DS is home tomorrow night he's so tired at times he can barely speak, he'll sleep most of the weekend, many boys just like to just chill out whenever they can. Finally you're right about the houses, many are scruffy, in my DH's house the communal area is tiny the whole house do struggle to fit in, yet he frequently talks about conversations he has with his HM, assistant HM, visiting Dons etc so conversation must take place somewhere. If you want pristine accommodation look at a Eton instead but I personally don't dare it's the people that make a school not the buildings.
Good luck I hope you find somewhere, do PM me if you want to know more.

Thank you OP for this post....

Thank you, Happy. that's probably the most comprehensive and helpful description of WC I've read!

Wow, happy, that's a great post.

I would just say that DS's house at Eton was distinctly scruffy. He, however, once described going back to his house in winter as "magic". It was his scruffy, warm home and his friends were there.

HG I agree with the others, helpful and even written in a poetic way!
Posadas in response to the experience of your visit the boys are busy on Saturday, a fair few will be at away matches which seem to predominate some weeks looking at the fixture list, some may be in their houses between activities or catching up on work or trying to catch some quiet time away from all the activity. There are also astroturfs and other sport facilities that are away from the main grounds. The boys practise their music in the music school but often also in their houses and the soundproofing is very good in the music school so you would n't hear it unless a window was open.
HG has said it much better than I could but understated acute intelligence and depth are words that come to my mind about the school and the people there. Don't underestimate the housemasters, they create and manage happy houses despite the usual quota of teenage problems and are more focused on the boys than public relations. Lots of conversations between the boys with different teachers (not just those attached to the house) and visitors at mealtimes and in the evenings.

The problem with some schools is that the visits don't give you enough insight into what is special (or in some cases bad as in the recent discussion about Oundle) about them until your DC is there. That dilemma is intensified when you are looking at boarding.

Just wanted to add that we have very recent experience of the pastoral care frankly I stunned but delighted at our HM who was absolutely fantastic (as we'd hoped he would be when we choose him over 6yrs ago). It is I believe unusual for your HM to be such a key figure all through your school life. In most cases boarder have tutors as well who may initially be your HM but usually only for a short period. At Winchester they do have tutors but the HM remains the key person and of course is well placed to do the job as he is the person who chosen you to be part of his house, lives along side you and has watched you grow up.

Thanks, Happy, I'm smiling all over my face. DS just has to pass his exam now!

One question I wondered about just in case you can answer - which sports thrive better at WC? I'm hoping the football will be OK, even if there aren't masses of fixtures, as that's his favourite. Are there any it's worth avoiding?

I understand archery has a very small budget! X country running is very good, a teacher at another school who take X country running very seriously (I feel out if breath just thinking about it) says Winchester is the one they all want to beat, the fencing club have had two very good years and sailing is strong. There's at least one very good rowing team out there and rowing certainly seems on the up those who row (in all schools) take it very seriously.
Of course success in any sport depends on the individuals you have in the school at the time. Winchester X country team I understand from this teachers whose at another school is so successful because of one extraordinarily able individual. This applies to all sports when my DH was a school their 1st 8 were so successful because four GB team rowers just happened to be in the same school/year the following year after they left they had a disastrous year.

Again just to add.
Athletics, hockey, rackets, golf, squash and cricket also have excellent coaches. Tennis lots of very good players but the senior team coaching is better than the juniors.
Martial arts is popular.

And the polo, summerends, what about the polo? You can't get your head around Plato's Socratic dialogues if you can't play polo (preferably in tail coats).