Why didn't your child apply to Oxford or Cambridge?

[ZeroSomeGameThingy]

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/may/27/oxbridge-state-school-numbers-falling

Given that most people who apply will not get in - there's no shame in an unsuccessful application. So what are the real reasons for this apparent reluctance?

I would expect any young person applying to Oxford and Cambridge to have the capacity to make an objective, rational, dispassionate assessment of the universities

Come now duchesse - stop pretending you've never met a "young person". (You may even have been one yourself?)

Objective. Rational. Dispassionate. Their brains aren't capable of holding those qualities. It would be entirely unfair not to recognise that schoolchildren will make decisions based almost entirely on how something feels.

Though of course that feeling will be influenced by the impressions they've gained from teachers, parents (and parents' friends) and anyone else they respect.

(I'm not sure I believe that any teenagers are watching Morse. )

I have three teenagers (well, one is 20 now). I know plenty of young people who are more than capable of those qualities.

And that's the whole point. If a young person relies more on what some randomer tells them/ their mates think rather than doing their own research (especially nowadays when it's so very easier to do research) and coming to their own conclusions, then maybe a high level university isn't for them.

But they still at 17 need a reassuring person who can encourage them (not discourage them). Whether that's family, friends or teachers doesn't really matter to kids who are Oxbridge material.

I know plenty of people who went to Oxbridge from familes where there was no experience of it. I always know a fair few people who went to Oxbridge from families where no-one had been to university at all. It can be done.

Example: daughter of friends. Older sisters went to art school and agricultural college. Parents did not go to university. Child is dyslexic. Can't write an essay easily. Decided at 13 that she was bloody well going to get into Cambridge. Parents quaked as had no notion of Cambridge, and thought the dyslexia might be a problem. Luckily child was at school with excellent careers advice, good SEN provision and experience of Oxbridge entrance and was able to sort everything out herself. She bloody well started at Cambridge last Autumn. Bright, but also ultra-focused, motivated and sorted. And that is the kind of kid that on the whole tends to make it.

Would be interesting to see some statistics on both of those groups - entry from families with no Oxford / Cambridge history and entry from families with no university background whatsoever.

Do universities keep such records?

It's certainly one of the questions I was asked on my Cambridge application form 28 years ago. They must surely still collate that information.

And I would certainly expect an Oxbridge destined young person to understand and recognise the difference between opinion and evidence-based fact by age 17, yes. In answer to your earlier question Zero.

Decided at 13 that she was bloody well going to get into Cambridge.

Yes. But that's not objective, rational, dispassionate .... That was based on going with what felt right. Young people can apply plenty of focus and determination to following their dreams - but I still say it's an emotional rather than intellectual decision.

Well, she was only 13. Most kids at that are too busy worrying whether their mascara has run or kicking each other to focus on things that will happen in 5 years' time. One week is a long time for the average 13 year old.

You don't need to decide aged 13. Anytime up to midnight on Oct 15th in the year of application is fine. Your referees might like a bit of advance warning, but it shouldn't actually matter that much in terms of what they were intending to write. And the aptitude tests aren't based on knowledge, so applicants should already possess the skills required. I'd advise DC to keep an open mind until really quite late. It mitigates disappointment if they then don't get in.

I'd definitely consider either place for both dd and ds given a little encouragement from their school - which is likely to be forthcoming if appropriate for them individually, considering about 10 went off to Oxbridge last year.
Possibly more likely to apply for Cambridge as it's nearer us and so we know it better and have more connections there - also I think it's prettier < shallow >
I'd love to visit dd in Cambridge, or if not there I quite like the look or sound of Bath, Norwich, York, or Durham - basically I'm looking for places with some quaint buildings and nice tea shops
Of course they may each have other ideas - possibly based on more solid reasons! - and we still have GCSE's to get through yet - next year for dd

Exactly, Juggling, it is what they consider.

You should not decide too late. My brother started working very hard at school at 15 when he decided to read medicine at Cambridge and did very well and achieved that. If you decide to get your finger out only after GCSEs it's too late. So to an extent you need to put in the effort during your teens.

I dispute it's not very hard to get into Bristol for most people. It is hard. Just because someone on the thread's child found it easy does not mean it's easy for most teenagers. I think they have 14 applicants per place etc. Obviously it's easier than Oxbridge....

(Off topic someone above asked me how someone even on one of the highest law/ bank graduate schemes of £40k could afford a flat share in Covent Garden without considerable parental help. I have a daughter on one of those and she's way down the tube line............
I think her friend's parents bought each son a £750k flat about 10 years ago in Covent Garden and they have one nearby too (as well as the parents' place in the country). I don't know what rent she paid (she's just bought a flat herself with her husband in W1 and the renting was a few years ago).

I suppose my point was the things you get out of university are not just the academic work and time to get to know yourself and your interests and to make friends and whatever else. The horse thing was good - up early, mucking out etc, hard work - not something all students would do.

(PS for anyone interested I sold the island at Easter sob.. I shall now have to slum it as a non-island owner, such psychological trauma.... although I do not rule out buying another in a few years. I was offered a good price after building on it last year and was a bit fed up too with local fisherman going by - not isolated enough.)

Actually, I believe there are about four times the number of applications to Oxford and Cambridge as there are places. Obviously, a great many young people rule themselves out of the competition as they don't think they would like it, they don't expect to meet the entry criteria or they just don't know to apply by 15th October. So yes, competition is fierce, but numerically they're not the most oversubscribed degree courses in the UK.

My god daughter (went to Oxford) was rejected by Bristol.

If you apply then it's time consuming, why bother if your heart isn't set on Oxford and/or you don't have the right grades?

I would recommend UCL

grovel You have a god daughter and failed to provide her with a sufficientlty studious horse?

Hope you're thoroughly ashamed....

I went to Bristol < random >
Tis quite nice there
Mainly because met lots of lovely people
And it has pretty georgian architecture & pubs sell cider

I don't think it follows that children usually only start working once they've decided to go for Oxford or Cambridge though Jane, although obviously that as a goal might spark up a clever but lazy child. I would think being open minded about the possibility of going elsewhere is a good protective approach. For that reason 'setting your heart on it' aged 13 might well end it tears, or in more tears than you would otherwise shed. And your friends might find you a bore.

The process of applying really isn't time consuming at all VSeth, unless you count the interview days which, at least with some subjects at Oxford, can go on for a while. Other than that, it takes almost no time to stick in an A Level essay and only a couple of hours for an aptitude test. That's the only difference to be honest.

Sorry, I didn't mean that. Just that once you have a goal you often then start working towards it. I would all the teenagers of those on this thread get on with working hard whether they are aiming for Oxford or any other career which involves hard work and passing exams.

Goals do however motivate teenagers. I was determined to win a scholarship to university, no idea why. I looked for which ones had scholarship exams, entered myself and did some 3 hour special exams which presumably were a bit like general knowledge/ general essay / general studies questions.

I would recommend UCL too, VSeth, but the entry requirements are now about the same there as at Oxford and Cambridge (and Imperial and a few other places, I suppose). My son had an offer from UCL. He wasn't interviewed but there was a written test, so it wasn't a completely straightforward application.

When I filled in my UCAS form in 1993, I thought Oxford and Cambridge were too posh for me and anyway it would be too expensive to live anywhere down south. I had no access to information about the merits of different universities other than reading the list of them in the UCAS guide and their prospectuses. For some reason I thought you couldn't do Law at Cambridge as well. I thought apart from Oxford and Cambridge, other universities were pretty much of a muchness. I chose where to study based on being not too far from home and being a cheap area to live in.

If someone had taken me aside when I started sixth form college and said I could be Oxbridge material if I worked hard, and shown me how to organise myself and work hard then it may have been a different story.

Delphiniums you tick Juggling off for saying she would consider, but isn't it actually a very good thing for parents to pick up the idea of Oxbridge if they sense their child is able, and to suggest it to the child and encourage the child? Some parents may be better at this than the school, for whatever reason. I do think it important for the parent to emphasise the odds, and to point out good alternatives, but definitely a good, not a bad, to consider/ suggest. Of course it's ultimately for the child to decide if it wants to apply or accept an offer, but I also think parents should try to prompt their child, and parents shouldn't be castigated for that.

I needed better grades.