DID I hear right? That parents of 4 rising 5s can now DEFER school entry in England??

[Tansie]

HAS England joined the 21st century?

I am delighted if this is the case but also rather angry that my May born DSs have struggled throughout school, and will forever struggle whilst in academia to be measured against DC who are nearly 10 months older than themselves?

At 17 you may say: What does that matter now? to which I'd say 'because my DSs were, at 7, 'only just 'good enough' (2s at KS1 SATS); at 10-11, just 'OK (level 4s with the odd 5 at KS2 SATS) then streamed and 'set' ever onwards.

I believe there is a statistic that shows that 70%-odd of Oxbridge entrants are Autumn born, thus I rest my case.

I look now at DS2; 13 years and 2 weeks, school prize for application, contribustion, effort, 'joining in' etc etc- but academically just 'OK' and think : IF he were at the end of Y7, not 8, he'd be in the top sets for most things. He'd be feeling bloody good about himself, his achievements etc etc. He'd be 'aiming high' as his results would demonstrate that he 'was capable'... however, he knows he's 'struggling' academically as he just doesn't have the maturity to absorb some of what's being taught.

Which wouldn't of course be useful for the boys in their 'correct' school year with non-tiger parents barely keeping up with a much higher 'best' to aim at, I guess..

I'm aware that I didn't need to enrol him; it was the funding which was an issue. And the principal: he wasn't ready for school.

ReallyTired do you really think a 4 year old who is already more than two years behind their peers (developmentally below 18 months) should be in a full time reception class? A child who can't walk, talk, is incontinent, unable to swallow food or water and is unable to communicate their needs in any way.

mrz of course not. But that isn't what the OP is talking about. And that situation is a result of being born in August.

Sorry IS'NT. Blooming cat walking across my iPad!

No Herc but my question was to ReallyTired nothing to do with the OP.

The reason Edinburgh urged people not to defer was due to certain schools who when they knew would have difficulty with the number of catchment places urged the nursery teachers to defer children from September onwards to relieve the pressure.

Working in Nursery, we have had all our deferrals approved for this year with no problems. But they have become stricter on the schools who were doing "the catchment numbers issue so lets defer malarky!"

So deferrals aren't automatic Groovee?

January and February ones usually get the stamp of approval without being looked at unless there is a high level of them.

August to December ones need written reports etc and sometimes yes we can say, the child will benefit but some won't be approved as there isn't enough evidence that an extra year is needed. Those reports are the worst as they are so negative to be able to get the funding. Think of a DLA form... it's rather like that. I always feel guilty speaking to a parent.

"ReallyTired do you really think a 4 year old who is already more than two years behind their peers (developmentally below 18 months) should be in a full time reception class? A child who can't walk, talk, is incontinent, unable to swallow food or water and is unable to communicate their needs in any way."

I think that a child who is as severely disabled has as much a right to an education as a child without disablities. Deferring such a child is a form of disablity discrimation. It is denying them opportunities to develop. Such a child should have as much right to a full time education as a child without disablities.

I would hope that such a child would have a statement which includes visits from a physio, speech and language therapist and support from a one to one TA. I believe that the parents of such a child should have the choice between mainstream and special school. Inclusion is often the best option in the early years and it does not hurt non disabled children to mix with disabled children.

Maryz- there were some children who were a full twelve months older than my daughter and I wasn't happy about this at all, or about the fact there is a fifteen month range in the other P1 class. I sent her knowing she would cope but would be way behind the children just about to turn 6!

Do you think an 18 month old child should be in the same class with rising 6 year olds as a matter of course then ReallyTired?

For the record the child isn't severely disabled just developmentally delayed and not statemented

It would surely depend on the nature and extent of the delay, in the case of my foster son who is severely delayed but in main stream education, deferring him would have made no difference as he has needed one to one classroom support for the entire eleven years at school and will never fully catch up. He would need to be delayed about six or seven years to be at the same academic level as his peers and even then that wouldn't work as they would progress whereas he is at his optimum now.

"Do you think an 18 month old child should be in the same class with rising 6 year olds as a matter of course then ReallyTired?"

Do I think a developmentally delayed child has the right to inclusion -Yes! I feel that disabled children should be included in the mainstream classroom. It does cost money though.

Shunting off children to special school or worse still keeping them in nursery is not a perfect solution. Certainly there are some children who truely need a special school, but children with special needs should not be sent to be special schools to get them out of the way as a general nuisance.

"For the record the child isn't severely disabled just developmentally delayed and not statemented"

The school has let him down.

I think a child who cannot walk, talk or use the toilet at five year old is significantly disabled and should be statemented. The majority of three year olds can do all those things and if you were to defer him starting school how long would you wait? The little boy in question might never develop speech or be continent.

If the school does not have the resources to cope with the child mrz then the SENCO needs to get off her fanny and get the child the help he desperately needs. There is a little boy in dd's reception class who is statmented and has a one to one since the age of three. He is less disabled than the child you describe, but has a statement.

The issue with statements is that the school has to fund the first 15 hours of any statement. Many schools are reluctant to statement children for this reason.

My question was do you think an eight month old child should be in a full time reception class ReallyTired.

You seem to be jumping to conclusions - the child doesn't have a statement because the parents have refused to give permission for the school to apply. He has been seen by an Ed Psych who recommended that the child attend part time as he struggled with part time nursery sessions and needed frequent naps ... very difficult with lively 5 year olds around.

eighteen not eight obviously

I have thought often about deferring 3 year old DS3 who has a late July birthday. More from his emotional standpoint than an academic one. As I understand it, he would still have to start in Yr1 anyway so will have missed out on a year of establishing friendships and will be at a disadvantage from the other kids in the knowledge of routines, way around school etc. Not only that but there is no guarantee he would get a place at the catchment school anyway, we got him in by the skin of our teeth this year! Better to get the stress about that over with now rather than go through it next year.

He goes to a very good nursery though and can hold his own with the other kids there, some of whom will be going to the same school with him. He can also write his name, knows all his colours, and can count well even up to 10 in French! He is also taller than most of his nursery class (3-5 yr olds).

I have 3 other DC all born between Dec and Feb. 2 out of those 3 have been in the below average/average sets in school (one with LDs which were not diagnosed until Yr7). 1 has always been top set. It depends on the DC's ability as to whether they will do well not just their birth month. A few months will not make the difference as to whether they are in top or bottom set. The emotional readiness is more important IMO.

As he doesn't legally have to go to school until next September anyway, if DS needs the odd day at home chilling with me, he shall have it. For the first few weeks, I can bring him home for lunch. I will ease him in gently, not too bothered about attendance stats in Reception year.

"My question was do you think an eight month old child should be in a full time reception class ReallyTired"

If the child has a chronological age of four years old, but a mental age of 8 months then they should definately be a in reception class of some type. Whether that reception class is in a maintream or a special school should be a decision between the ed pych and the parents.

Personally I feel that all children should have the right to inclusion (if that is the parents' choice), UNLESS they significantly risk the safety of other children. It is up to the reception teacher, the school and local authority to organise the resources to ensure that the child gets a suitable education. If the school cannot cope with the child they need to apply for funding so that they can cope.

mrz I take it that you are against inclusion of children with special needs. Being opposed to inclusion is a valid view point, but I disagree with you.

Mind you all my DC are tall. Seeing some of the DSs Yr7 friends, I do a doubletake as they look way too small to be at secondary and walking to school on their own and some have turned out to be older than them.

No ReallyTired I'm not against inclusion ... another wrong conclusion

"No ReallyTired I'm not against inclusion ... another wrong conclusion"

So do you mind a child with a cognitive age of 18 months being in a mainstream class with six year olds PROVIDED there is adequate support? Why do you think it would be helpful to defer a child with significant developmental delay?

I don't mind any child being in a mainstream class ReallyTired

I agree with scarlett and Maryz that deferrals left up to parents can have some unfortunate consequences. Where I have been in Scotland it has usually been the been better educated parents opting for deferral and the disadvantaged have been left further behind.

I put my December-born ds in at 4 to a school where only one or two deferred (we thought we might be moving back to England anyway so it was a sensible choice to start at 4 and 7 months.) Then on moving to another area in Scotland my son was now the youngest in the class (bar one poor wee February born) and there were even children born the December before: these were big, able children.

(One further issue in Scotland is that if they are going to University, non-deferred students with birthdays after September will still only be 17 at entry.)

Parents often have no concept of their children's ablities. They either significantly under or over estimate their children's ablities. I feel that parents should not have the final say whether a child is defered.

tattybogle describes is utter chaos and unfair on the younger children. The are at an even bigger unfair academic disadvantage in reception than in England where the age gap between the eldest and the youngest is 12 months.

Exactly. This concept of 'emotionally' ready' is something that I think particularly hard to define.

Where are these classfulls of September-borns with one lonely summer baby among them? You do realise children can be born in any month and that not every child will be "nearly a full year older". There will be one or two who fit that description. The rest will be scattered through the year.