Child Abuse by Teachers at Colet Court, Southbank, etc...

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Do the reports of abuse by teachers at Colet Court, Southbank, etc... deter you from sending your DC to these schools? I am registering my DS for school exams and I wonder at what point do you decide it is worth the risk because a school has had such a successful track record?

Like all parents I'm in favour of all abuse of children (most of which sadly occurs at home) being rooted out.

We all seem to be in agreement that today St Paul's and Colet Ct are very safe places. They always were compared to schools which were 100% boarding even in the old days as there is less chance it happens in day schools so always in that sense been the safer choice, although as we can see nowhere is safe, sadly not even for many children in their own homes.

JaneParker we do not "all agree that CC and St Paul's are very safe places". Please do not presume to speak for all the commentators. I do not understand why you are so desperate to convince us it is such a safe place given that you are not the parent of a child attending the school. As you said yourself, those parents who do not trust the management of the school will choose another high performing London boys school.

I just feel there seems to be a nasty undertone on the thread, that's all. I am just trying to be just and fair.

www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article4108569.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2014_06_04

If there was any

www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article4108569.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2014_06_04

If there is any doubt as to what qualifies as historic abuse I would hope that todays article in The Times helps: Mr Fuggle resigned September 2013. That's just over 6 months ago. He has been charged. 30 years it was happening. 6 months ago still. Who knows how else this particular teachers particular proclivity manifested itself behind the great school walls. I suspect there are current students as well as ex students who have stories to tell.
With over 20 suspects one would have to ask this question: is there a case against the school itself?
Or shall we instead focus on todays Oxbridge entry hit rate?

Jane
Can you qualify the 'nasty thread' you talk of?
Is is because people are vociferously and actively taking a stand against your posts?
Are the papers being 'nasty' in publishing these stories?
Would you prefer we all just kept quiet and agreed with you?

Maybe the real nasty thread is the prolific history of child abuse that took place at St Paul's and Colet Court
And finally after many difficult years it is being publicised - for the welfare of current students and for some kind of closure for the victims.

In case you don't know today's article in the times reveals the first teacher has been charged. He resigned in 2013

"Like all parents I'm in favour of all abuse of children (most of which sadly occurs at home) being rooted out. "
You have to read to the end of this train of thought to breathe half a sigh of relief.
There are revelations not only in word placement but overall tone ( as opposed to undertone) in your posts of poorly thought through reasoning.
I strongly hope you see my comments to yours as counter active in so far as I care deeply for the victims and their pursuit for justice, and when I sense a refusal to accept the facts I can not help but respond accordingly

I've only just caught up with this thread. I am amazed at the level of information available. Who are all these experts who seem to know so miuch about the details of every case and the people involved? Having read all of the press articles quoted and seen most of the school emails via friends who are current parents, they definitely don't contain this level of information. I can't help feeling that this thread has been taken over by people who are personally involved in some way.
If you are planning on choosing an independent school for your son on the basis of whether or not there have been allegations of abuse, historic or otherwise you could find yourself choosing from a very small list...according to previous reports in the The Times. SPS is being singled out at the moment but there will be plenty of other schools to follow. As with every school, you do your research for yourself, you visit, you ask questions and you judge that school and its community on what is happening now.

Let's not be naive here, Andrew Norfolk is an investigative journalist, he is paid to investigate. Of course there will be more articles.

Lets not be naive here
Let St Paul's be the flagship then
Or would you rather sink the ship before it's made its way to its rightful home?

Goodness Posadas I am glad I'm not looking at the works through your eyes

Meant for pitch black not posadas
World not works

Urbaned

I have no idea what you mean with your ship analogy.
With three errors in your message, I'm not sure that you do either.
We are discussing the school and the allegations of abuse. Your comments are personal and unpleasant. We are all entitled to our own view which is surely the purpose of this site.
I am merely being realistic and don't agree with tarring a whole community, parents, boys and teachers as you have been doing in these posts.
Everyone sane wants justice for the victims and punishment for those found guilty but many of these people are still under investigation.

They remain great schools and a good choice for most parents. That does not mean any of us tolerate or think any kind of abuse is acceptable.

Have to say, Pitch, that makes sense to me. I have worked with abuse survivors and am aware of the dreadful impact of abuse - and, sadly, am also aware that the problem is nowhere near limited to one or two schools.

I'm all for talking about it, tackling it, opening closed systems and naming what needs to be named.

I'm not sure that avoiding a few specific schools is ever the answer. I don't have sons, and if I did I probably wouldn't be sending them to an indie school anyway, but several (very aware) parents I know are sending their sons to CC or similar schools, and they are taking the view that getting involved and tackling the issue by openness and questioning is more useful, ultimately, than blacklisting and avoiding.

I do have daughters, and similarly I'm trying to teach them how to trust their feelings, respect their bodies, and talk talk talk if they ever feel uncomfortable or manipulated. I have no idea if they will come across potential abusers, though obviously I hugely hope not - but there are damaged people in every walk of life, so I want my kids aware and in possession of strategies. And I will talk to whatever schools they go to, get involved, try and have a positive influence on the community ethos in favour of openness and awareness.

Absolutely spot on Elibean. An open atmosphere at home and at school is the best starting block for any future potential threat to our children. Transparency and zero tolerance is surely the aim for any school, including SPS....and they are definitely putting into place strategies to achieve that goal whatever some of the posts may claim.

I hope that most parents looking at schools will take the same measured, informed and reasonable approach. I find this all encompassing, 'guilty before being proved innocent' approach quite terrifying for all involved. Creating an aggressive, threatening atmosphere helps no one, particularly our children.

I don't have some ulterior motive here. My children are long gone from the system but I still care about other prospective parents and pupils.

My apologies for my errors pitch black
There sometimes isn't enough time in the day and racing through my comments I made typos - perhaps however if you looked beyond my errors you may have understood more. I did however correct my errors / and forgive me but I only count 2. If you didn't understand my flagship analogy does that make it an error? That could be perhaps more of an indication of your failing than mine and more so of what you qualify as an error: do you call things errors because you don't understand them?
Let me try to explain - flagships are used metaphorically as I am sure you are aware. I used the term metaphorically : St Paul's could lead the way in how it deals publicly and privately over its prolific, sustained and to date peerless history of extreme child abuse.
I believe its logo is 'By Faith and Learning'. Since it has unequivocally failed to stand by hundreds of its students under this umbrella tag I am suggesting that either it closes its gates or opens them unequivocally to acceptance, humility and duty to the victims. - something it clearly failed to do and something it is still failing to do.
Would you like me to explain how it has failed its victims?
As for all the other folks who posted after my last I doubt I could add anything beyond what I have said to help you
Forgive me again if I have made any grammatical errors indeed typos - I wasn't paying attention during Enklosh clasd

You replied to the wrong person, that was the third error. I don't mind typos, spelling mistakes, etc.....we all do it, but if you are going to be quite so patronising towards others, then maybe you should get the small details right. And no, I don't refer to things I don't understand as errors, your analogy/ metaphor, call it whatever you like, was pretty unclear to others.
I am not in any way condoning any form of abuse but I object to the manner in which you present your opinions as facts. This is an open forum for discussion, it is not a platform for you to malign both individuals and the whole SPS community. The investigation is ongoing, the school is co-operating and most of us will wait to hear the results of these investigations. Only then will it be acceptable to name individuals as guilty and punish them accordingly.
As for the school closing its doors or sinking? It has existed for more than 500 years, I don't think so. A flagship for other schools to follow in the way it deals with these allegations? I truly hope so.

Pitch black - Are you not being patronising? Some things for you and your allies to think about:
1/Suggesting that because I made typos / errors I don't understand my analogy
2/'Small details'? I'm concerned with the truth - big medium small
3/ 'My opinions'?! Are the police concerned with my 'opinion'?
4/Are the 200 plus victims submitting their stories to the police based on my 'opinion'?
5/Indeed are they giving their 'opinions' to the police ?
Your choice of words here has revealed exactly that it is your 'opinion' on these atrocities that you are presenting as facts; but I have more than 'opinions'
6/You say this is not a platform for me to do what I am doing which is speaking on behalf of the victims, but it is a platform for you to speak on behalf of the school, which (your tone) allegedly and a very long time ago harboured the odd child abuser but what school doesn't?! Hell it's been around for 500 years and for all the alleged victims and child abusers can we please remember and think of all the students who weren't abused and the teachers who didn't abuse.
7/Who is naming names as you say ? I am not - who are you addressing when you say that?
8/You say I am maligning 'both individuals' - ambiguous. Better to suggest that I am maligning 'individuals' and the SPS community omitting the word 'both'. Or are you referring to elibean and Jane p who you are rallying around, as well as the SPS community?
9/ you say 'most of us here will wait to hear the results' - that's because most of you here don't know the results - some of us do: some of us already know the results of abuse and where and by who that abuse was committed. You are waiting because you only have opinions, not experience. And your opinions are full of errors.
You are projecting - your tone reveals who you are
Let mine reveal me - I hope the victims find their way beyond people like you
As for the school sinking - it already drowned a good number of its boys, and men. And it even charged money for it. It should close its gates. Just as a private surgeon should be stripped of his right to operate if he made the wrong incision one too many times.

I can understand someone damaged by any proven abuser being very cross indeed about it and like most parents I want child abuse rooted out wherever it occurs. I don't think Colet C or St P are likely to have been much worse than many other schools in their day and probably less bad because they are mostly day schools so less chance for that to occur.

I seen on contradiction in saying anyone who can get a son into either school being very lucky and that most of the boys do very well indeed and also wanting any abuse anywhere rooted out.

(see no contradiction)...

Urbaned
You misread and misinterpret my posts as you see fit. I am profoundly sorry if you experienced abuse of any sort but your personal experience, however traumatic, does not mean that you are an authority on any of the other alleged cases, or their voice.
You are venting your fury on me for supporting those who have done nothing wrong. I totally support the police investigation and the consequent punishment of any teacher who is found to be guilty of any offence. I have never said otherwise but I will not vilify every SPS staff member, past and present. You misinterpret my 'tone' because it suits you to do so. In your eyes I am only concerned with the overall picture with no regard for individuals who have allegedly suffered abuse at the school. It is simply not the case, I am merely concerned that you are presenting an image of the school currently, which is not accurate. I am not writing on behalf of the school, I would have no authority to do so. Like you, I am expressing my opinion and that is all.

Well, I hope most other schools would not have quite so many complaints made about quite so many former members of staff. Eighteen teachers is quite a lot! To an outsider it gives the impression either that this country had a major paedophilia problem in the 1960s, 70s and 80s (which means we still have this problem today, as society being more aware of it doesn't cure the problem, just drives it further underground), or that a group of paedophiles felt they had found a safe haven for a while at the school, or that a lot of former St Paul's boys seriously misinterpreted what happened to them during their time there - or a mix of all 3.

I do feel very sorry for current children, parents and staff who are innocent of all this but nevertheless caught up in it. I hope the result of it is that all schools become safer places for children.

And I hope those who were abused get some kind of justice.

I've said all I want to to you pitch black elibean and JP
In due course your assumptions / opinions about the school going forward may well be proven right for it will probably be the safest place to send your children in years to come

Regarding your opinions about the schools history, let's wait and see. The extent of this investigation and the details that may well surface I can only hope will humble you. For as it stands you are surpassing what you know by defending what you don't.
Hoping you all have a good weekend

Urbaned -- you remind me in your tone and approach of a parent whose son was asked to leave the school because of repeated misbehaviour. The child's parents embarked on a campaign to malign the school at every possible opportunity. Are you familiar with the case? (You seem to have a lot of inside information about the school!)

Rabbitstew -- I share your hope that justice is served. Your "mix of 3" might well be correct, though I remain sceptical that SPS was more of a "safe haven" than many other schools. You're right that problems don't go away with greater awareness. However, the fact that many parents now have more open dialogues with their children, are more involved with their schools and are more attuned to children's emotions than decades ago means (I hope) that parents today are more likely to ask questions if they notice behavioural changes and, thus, more likely to become aware of problems (not only sexual abuse but also bullying, stress, friendship challenges, etc) and able to address them.

Posadas you couldn't be further off the mark!
Everything you write is speculative.
And mostly inaccurate

I go back to perception v projection
Do you know the difference? How to distinguish one from the other in others, and indeed oneself.

You lack perception
As for projection...

Good night and goodbye folks
My time here is done

Wishing you all the best on this forum - I have never done this before and have found it fascinating.

Thank you for the debate