WHY the general assumption that private schools are better?

[tootsietoo]

I know this is similar to other recent threads, but slightly different!

I know very little about education - never worked in the sector, don't have many friends working in it, never been interested til children arrived! However, in my limited experience (DDs 6&7 at local primary school) the level of professionalism of the teachers is impressive! There seems to be such a comprehensive structure for planning progression and for assessing children's attainment, whilst the teachers seem to have the freedom to work with the children to inspire them in that they choose topics which interest them and can tailor classes and working groups to match children's abilities.

Yet within my group of friends there seems to be this inbuilt assumption that if you ever can pull enough cash in then off to private school your children will go. I also frequently read on here that the existence of private schools is unfair because it means only a few children will have the best opportunities. Which seems to assume that all private schools offer the best opportunities.

Is this a hangover from the 70s and 80s when we all grew up? Were state schools much worse then? Why is it just assumed that private schools offer the best education? I know private schools have more money therefore usually have the glitzy facilities, but surely it is down to the person standing in front of the children day in day out who is the really important part? I recall that at my small private girls day school I experienced the most inept teaching methods imaginable and I am told that at private schools today there is no requirement for teachers to be qualified! I do appreciate that my children are at a good school (that is, classified by ofsted as "good"), but are they all that unusual?

In what world is 'not going to Oxford or Cambridge' the same as 'underachievement'?

It's not leas who 'send' children to Oxbridge or not anyway, is it? They're not in a vacuum! Unlike private schools.

nit you know full well that's not what I'm saying, but hey ho...tiem for dinner.

Well... Show me the LEA that's 'failing to send' any children to Oxbridge and I imagine I'll show you an lea that's contending with a lot more than any private school, rather than just deciding for some reason best known to itself that it'd rather not be arsed. That's all.

There are plenty underachieving bright children at state schools. Not all bright children and not all schools, obviously, but enough to be a problem IMO.

I rant on and on about where we live, but here are the stats from last year: news.stv.tv/scotland/205122-school-league-tables-exam-and-performance-details-for-west-lothian/

(Where has the convert link button gone? Are they automatically converted now?)

Generally speaking, you need 5 Highers to get a university place. Linlithgow is sitting at 36%. Everywhere else in the area is well below that. Several, including DH's old school are in the single figures. I know no one here knows the area, but thinking as a normal school population, does anyone really truly think that only 5% of Whitburn Academy pupils are capable of getting 5 Highers?

DH was actually in that 5% for his year. He got a uni place and ended up dropping out within the first term because he felt so completely unprepared for uni. He passed his Highers in 5th year and then completely wasted 6th year which he now utterly regrets. Fortunately he got his act together and ended up successfully applying for a graduate recruitment programme at our employer as an internal candidate but it was made that much more difficult because he had, in his words, "wasted his education".

I don't believe he's alone. We live in the catchment for one of the other single digit schools in that link. There are many bright children in DD's primary school class, probably enough to match Linlithgow's but I can't see the stats improving for the high school anytime soon.

Can I ask a question? What happens to private school students who don't want to go to University? Is it seen as a wasted Education?

I so agree with ABRA. The cars, other parents, their jobs etc don't concern me. If a school cares about my DS, teaches him and brings out the very best in him with smaller classes then that is worth it for me and him!

Yup--the rest is just flummery.

Oh yes, word and you know when you said I couldn't say state schools weren't failing children because there are leas not sending any children to Oxbridge? Yes, I'm afraid I did think that's what you were saying. Because you said it. Mea culpa and all that.

Sparkling, I can only speak from my experience re privately educated children. My 3 children were educated locally in the state section, becoming well rounded socially adept, well motivated individuals who went on to get good degrees at good universities. They had immense support and encouragement from their teachers. They had good state school experiences.
My stepson was privately educated in an expensive well known school ( well known politicians were past pupils) at enormous financial cost from the age of 7 to 18. He chose not to go to university as his A level results were not that brilliant and..... He said he had had enough of education to last him a lifetime. He did not really have a lot of leisure time out of the long hours of formal education which included Saturday mornings.
There was no pressure put on him I must add, nobody in the family made him feel it was wasted.
However, the financial outlay was immense and as it turned out his half siblings had an equally good education within the state system.
I am keen to stress that this is just my experience, I am sure others will have differing experiences.

That's sort of what I was thinking about story. What if the child doesn't want to go to University? I wondered how parents felt about that-or if it mattered to them. Disappointed after all the money spent?

Taz I lived in nearby Falkirk District for some time and when their overall low results were questioned the rest of the local leaders were up in arms saying it was talking down the efforts of kids and teachers etc. You are just not allowed to question it!

Sparkling, ds1 was privately educated and left school at 16 to go off and be a famous(!) footballer (hasn't happened yet, but is going in the right direction). DH and I were very happy to support him in his dream as it is potentially achievable, it's his life - whereas he hadn't chosen to have his education paid for him, that was down to DH and I - and we just thought that sport is something you have to do when you are young, whereas you can always go back into education if it doesn't work.

When we have the wonder of hindsight, we'll be able to tell if that was the right decision or not, to not be more forceful about him staying on at school and ultimately going to university. But for the moment, it has been the right decision.

Bowlers that's really good, that you let him make his own decision, knowing he had a talent to pursue, and yes, he can always go back to education at any point.

I think DH and I are fairly relaxed about the whole thing which helps. Some of our friends thought we were doing the wrong thing, and wouldnt have allowed their own dc to do something so risky. And the irony is that the pursuit of the footie would have worked better if he was at a state school ie we had terrible problems when the football matches clashed with Saturday school, for example.

I hope Universities don't have many students there only because their parents expected them to and didn't feel like they could say they didn't want to.

And here we go. A good, balanced and interesting discussion- but under the surface is the unspoken assumption that "Teachers who have the time to pay attention to my child and encourage them to enjoy learning, do the best they can academically and non-academically and to be kind and thoughtful people." only work in private schools.

mantorana Exactly. And that makes me think it's actually those people who don't know what a good education looks like.

I do agree with word that there is a problem in some state schools though. Just as there is in some posh schools. When we have this debate - every single time - the posh school proponents insist on comparing the best of their schools with the worst state schools.

Sparkling, I would imagine there are a fair number of students at universities because of parental pressure, or simply because it's the normal route following on from the school. It's the expectation from both the school and the parents, and mates actually.

Sparkling- I don't actually know whether I wanted to go to university or not- I just did. Because of that,I tried to have conversations with my daughter about whether she wanted to or not, and encouraged her to look at some non university options, but she was,I suspect on that family/school treadmill. Just hope she enjoys it when she gets there.......

That's quite sad to think about Bowlers.

DB announced after Year 1 on a 3 year course at University that he was quitting. My Dad was livid and DB wasn't privately schooled.

Sparkling, What did your brother do? Was he able to walk into a job? I think if my other DC decided to go to university, and if I'm honest, I hope they do, they'll see it through to get their degree and hopefully stand them good stead in the job market. I think that's a worry at the moment-not getting a job if they leave school at 16 or 18. Although would it be easier to get a job at 22? Maybe not. (I'm rambling-need to go to bed!) Although if they wanted to leave university after a year because it wasn't for them, they would have my full support.

"I do agree with word that there is a problem in some state schools though. Just as there is in some posh schools. When we have this debate - every single time - the posh school proponents insist on comparing the best of their schools with the worst state schools."

Some of us have one child in each camp and it's a bit difficult to not make comparisons.

But you are only comparing two individual schools. Neither of which may be representative.

Oh sorry Bowlers, incomplete story. There was two weeks of shouting from both parties.
DB went back and completed the course. He is now (30 years on) a very successful owner of a company with all the accompanying perks.

If I was my Dad I would be smug.

Herc, I'm not comparing two schools. I posted a link to an entire council area to make my point.