WHY the general assumption that private schools are better?

[tootsietoo]

I know this is similar to other recent threads, but slightly different!

I know very little about education - never worked in the sector, don't have many friends working in it, never been interested til children arrived! However, in my limited experience (DDs 6&7 at local primary school) the level of professionalism of the teachers is impressive! There seems to be such a comprehensive structure for planning progression and for assessing children's attainment, whilst the teachers seem to have the freedom to work with the children to inspire them in that they choose topics which interest them and can tailor classes and working groups to match children's abilities.

Yet within my group of friends there seems to be this inbuilt assumption that if you ever can pull enough cash in then off to private school your children will go. I also frequently read on here that the existence of private schools is unfair because it means only a few children will have the best opportunities. Which seems to assume that all private schools offer the best opportunities.

Is this a hangover from the 70s and 80s when we all grew up? Were state schools much worse then? Why is it just assumed that private schools offer the best education? I know private schools have more money therefore usually have the glitzy facilities, but surely it is down to the person standing in front of the children day in day out who is the really important part? I recall that at my small private girls day school I experienced the most inept teaching methods imaginable and I am told that at private schools today there is no requirement for teachers to be qualified! I do appreciate that my children are at a good school (that is, classified by ofsted as "good"), but are they all that unusual?

[happygardening]

"No disruptive pupils"
I think most are deluding themselves if they think every child in independent ed. sits perfectly behind a desk, beavering away, he only speaks when he's allowed to, he never fidgets or mucks about with his mate when he's bored. Children in independent ed. are still children they do stupid things like all children, of course they muck around in class, fidget, get bored, fail to do their prep etc. I accept that they are not running amok but we are constantly being told on here that this rarely happens in the state sector either and as I have one DS in the state sector ok uber wealthy rural area this is my experience as well.
Independent schools may be less tolerant of this behaviour, quicker to ring parents, put children on reports etc but when ever I visited my DS1 comp I never saw any children mucking around in lessons being disruptive.
word of course is right it's our money, how we choose to spend it is up to us, if we believe it better then in a free society that's our right, just as it's other peoples right to believe we're wasting our money fortunately we know we're not.

[Sparklingbrook]

Teen DS goes to state school. He has FB and has a mix of state/private friends. You wouldn't know which was which by what they post on there IYKWIM.

[TheWordFactory]

I think it depends happy.
I'm governor at a school where behaviour is a real ongoing issue.

It takes up an inordinate amount of teaching and management time.

And I suppose that's one of the main factors why people want private education; they want a choice. They don't want to tsake what they're given and end up in a school like that one.

They might also want very specialist education. I know you and I have chosen uber selective schools for our DSs. There are only a tiny handful of state schools that offer that.

DD's school is also unusual and isn't replicated in the state sector.

These are micro decisions/choices and highly subjective of course.

On a macro level, I guess parents look at society in the UK, see how it's set up and see the over representation of privately schooled people in the best paid, most influential jobs and think well my DC might want that, so why not give them the best chance. Understandable, no?

[TheWordFactory]

sparkling I would hope not!

I'm raisning kids. Normal kids.

[rabbitstew]

I agree with wordfactory and happygardening that, effectively, whether something is "better" or "worth it" or "value for money" depends on what the person spending the money thinks about it. If they think all those things, then obviously it IS all those things to them. That doesn't mean it has to be all those things to you, or that you're missing something not to see it the way they see it. We don't all want or need the same things.

[rabbitstew]

You just have to look at the clothes some people wear to know we don't all want or need the same things.

[TheWordFactory]

rabbit that's right.

And that's why it's difficult to try to say what drives parents to pay on a macro level. I've hazarded a guess below, but it is only a guess.

I suspect that there probably isn't a macro level driver. And that if you dig deeper, you will probably find very specific reasons that are individual to each family.

But that would spoil the usual assertions from the usual posters .

[Llareggub]

I live in an area where there is only one private school. I walk past the old building nearly every day on my way to the park. It has very little in terms of outdoor space and the children have to be bussed out to use the sports facilities at the university.

In comparison, the state primary school attended by my DC has plenty of grass, a sports field and a very nice view of the sea. My KS1 children play tennis, cricket, football and rugby depending on the season and from year 3 fencing is an option.

I do think that private school is not worth paying for where I live. Where I used to live, the choice of private school was much better and I would have done anything to secure a place for my DCs.

So I think it comes down to the individual school. I once looked at a small prep with class sizes that struggled to teach 8. I thought that was too small and a few years later it closed.

[happygardening]

word of course I accept that there are significantly disruptive pupils in some state schools but you and I know that independent schools are not shoulder to shoulder in perfectly behaved children, as you so correctly said we are raising normal kids.
rabbit you're right we don't all want need and as importantly like the same thing, I am completely in love with my car (this is a new experience for me as Im a very non car person) but I got friends who drive other makes of cars especially the new mini or that Audi who go into raptures over them where as Im completely unmoved. Neither of us is "right" we just want don't want the same thing.

[Sparklingbrook]

What I meant was that from what you read on MN sometimes private school children would be different in some way TheWord. But they are no better at FIFA and make spelling mistakes too.

When they all get together I don't think they even discuss it TBH. Far more interesting stuff to talk about knowing teen boys

[claraschu]

Teachers in a good private school have more time for individual children than teachers in a good state school.

[elastamum]

For us, it is about local options. The private school I send the DC to is far better than the catchment comp with no sixth form and less than 30% gcse pass rate that they would get bussed to as an alternative. The state sector round here, does not offer any other choice.

[holmessweetholmes]

Class size, facilities, opportunities and the type of kids your child would mix with. I have worked in quite a few state comprehensives, most of them rated good or outstanding, but there is simply no comparison between them and the private school I worked in.

It was so much better in every way - no behaviour issues at all, very supportive parents, calm and civilised atmosphere, smaller classes, more freedom to teach in your own way, much less pointless admin, more time to actually prepare good lessons and do thorough marking, lovely buildings, a positive attitude to school work, a better range of extra-curricular activities. And a general feeling that staff and students were on the same side - that the students wanted to be there, wanted to learn and actually wanted to contribute to making the school a nice environment.

Teachers in private schools are of course not necessarily any better (or worse) than those in state schools, but the difference in pay, conditions and holidays in many private schools certainly makes them able to attract very good candidates, while many state schools struggle to do so.

[holmessweetholmes]

Admittedly, it was a very good private school. Some are not!

[agnescrumplebottom]

It all depends on the area you live in as well. Ds1 was unable to cope with State school even at nursery age. In the end we had no choice but to send him to private school. That wasn't without problems either. However since we have moved he has happily settled into a good state school. Better school, more understanding of his needs (Not because he's my pfb but because he has Aspergers) his peers are more understanding and the parents are very friendly. Private school doesn't mean a fantastic school and it certainly doesn't mean the children are better behaved. At one of his schools they were vile tbh and we moved him very quickly. Our other children go to state schools.

[chickydoo]

There are obviously variables in both private & state. 2 of my 4 are at private selective schools, one is at sixth form college ( her choice) The youngest at state primary. The youngest will go private at secondary if we can afford it.
There is a difference at primary level. The work I have been shown by a Mum with a year 4 child at a prep school is much more advanced than the work my child in year 4 is being given. It is a shame as my DC is in top sets for everything, and finds the work really easy. He would love to be challenged more. The 'in school' sport at primary is not a patch on the sports that are being offered at the local prep schools. Primary class sizes are big and there is little or no one to one time with a teacher.
I have also noticed that at the primary we get lots of new, very young teachers ( they have to start somewhere I know) but at my friends son's prep, the teachers seem to come with more experience. Perhaps that is because the prep can pay the teachers more ( no idea about that really)
Generally standards, teaching etc seem fine at the local primary, (ours is outstanding according to ofstead) )and my child is very happy there. It is only when you look closely and see the comparisons with an indie school, you realise why the hefty price tag.

[tootsietoo]

Mercibucket, is no national curriculum and no ofsted a good or a bad thing? I would assume a bad thing?

Soveryupset - accepted and understood.

Clary - that does seem to be the strongest argument to me.

HM32 - yes. I also rave about the NHS whenever I can, as it seems to get run down by people so often, and I have had nothing but incredible care from it in the past.

TheWordFactory and happygardening - completely understand what you are saying. I would never suggest anyone shouldn’t buy exactly what they want with their hard earned cash, I am a free market capitalist through and through. I guess I am just pleasantly surprised by the professionalism and quality of our state education system after reading and hearing many negative things about it, and so that makes me surprised that I still know quite a few people who, just because they can afford private, don’t seem to consider the great local state schools as an option.

TheWordFactory - I think the feeling that a private education enables you to end up in the influential jobs is probably still a big factor, but I think that the world is changing (has changed?) really fast and that it’s not going to be an issue for our children.

I know people’s choices are all made for a multitude of tiny, completely different reasons, it’s just this pervasive, mostly unspoken assumption that if you can afford it you go private that is confusing me a bit right now. One friend, a year or so ago, moved her DS to private at KS2. Chatting to her about the decision, she said “it’s more about the sort of people they become”. She is very sweet, so I don’t think she’d quite realised the real meaning of what she’d said, but I think she had vocalised what quite a number of people I know think - that somehow, if you have a paid for education, you are a “different” sort of person. I can’t quite express different how. As I said above, I think the class system is disintegrating rapidly, so I suspect this sort of differentiation won’t matter so much in the future.

[MaryWestmacott]

(disclaimer, state education here!)

But the differences I can see compared to the good and outstanding ofsted state schools in our area are:

class size - massively different, half the number in many cases.

Resources and facilities.

The teachers themselves might be very similar, but from what I gather from friends/family who are teachers, it's just easier to do a good job with a lot less children to deal with and a lot more resources/money.

Plus it's easier to throw out distruptive pupils....

On the 'qualified teachers' point, generally, no, they don't need to be qualified in the private sector, but most parents demand it, and in an area where there's good state schools, parents will want qualified teachers unless they have a specialist skill. In my friend's DS's private school there's a PE teacher who isn't qualified as a teacher, but used to coach to international levels at their main sport and is a former Olympian. Another unqualified teacher I know teaches music and has performed to a high level, parents will accept 'an unqualified expert' over a 'qualified but no practical experience' teacher in certain subjects.

[happygardening]

Llareggub of course there's some private schools out there with dreadful facilities, mediocre teaching etc. I personally think the big differences between state schools in "leafy suburbs/wealthy rural area and independent schools only really becomes apparent when you look at the very top independent schools.
My DS's have been in and our of independent education since nursery they've attended a whole variety of schools big small cheap expensive free rubbish (in both sectors) "outstanding" (in both sectors), I've also looked at many schools in both sectors including grammar schools and for a shortish time I also worked and sat in lessons every day in an outstanding grammar (I'm not a teacher) with very good results. Through my job I've liaised with teachers in both sectors and have met every type of teachers from the sheer bloody awful to incredibly committed individuals ( both sectors. I thought I'd seen it all and agree there often is little difference. Then my DS went to his senior school and I was stunned by the difference, in all areas. Now of course I don't notice it, you just take it for granted, like he does, he was saying that visiting children (for sport fixtures) photo the buildings and he can't understand why but when he first went I felt like I'd moved to another world. I honestly believe that most people, and that includes many who are paying, have any idea about what actually goes on in schools like my DS's or where word sends her DS, what the actual difference is, until you actually are there and experience what these schools are like.
But of course this is only my opinion and as importantly it suits my DS this does not mean that it would suit your DC who might be happier, do better get more out of education in another school state or independent.

[TheWordFactory]

tootsietoo you really believe that the class system is disintegrating?

Boy, you are an optimist.

Social mobility is at an all time low. Comeptition for the most competitive courses at the most selective universities is at an all time high.

But you might be right......

[happygardening]

"it's more about the sort of people they become"
Interesting point I can see the difference between DS1's friends (state ed) nearly all MC, lovely and polite and DS2's friends I'm not saying either is better but there is a very obvious difference than most would spot instantly. Perhaps it's because DS2's friends board, this I suspect makes you more adaptable in new situations maybe thats it and you appear more mature (pure speculation) I'm not sure but there's definitely a difference. DS2's friends always offer to clear the table after a meal, DS1 friends are more likely to load the dish washer!

[TheWordFactory]

Well home obviously has the major influence on our DC's lives.

But school must have some impact too. Particularly as they become teenagers and peer influence increases/parental influence decreases (as it should be).

If you're lucky, you can ensure home and school have a harmonious effect upon your DC.

[Nocomet]

I think DD1 would have done better academically at a private senior school if it was the right one.

But she is dyslexic and at the start of secondary she was quirky, fussy, socially immature and easy prey for bullies (both obvious physical and name calling and insidious just having no friends and being left out)

She is also very bright, in the real curious about the world and understand things quickly way that goes beyond simply answering exam papers and quietly pretty hard working.

However, she is undoubtably hard work for her teachers. Pastoral care and the SENCO at her comp. Have been brilliant and the self assured 16yo DD is a far cry from that fussy Y7.

I can never know if our local private school would have been as good. I think she'd still have found making friends really hard and I'm not sure a private school would want to tell off "nice" Girls for ostracising someone or have the kind of skilled TAs to share your frustrations with.

[rabbitstew]

TheWordFactory - that depends on what you mean by a "class system." Isn't the old class system disintegrating and becoming a money system?