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Original poster

11+[sad]

56 replies

curlew · 20/08/2006 15:28

Does anyone else have a child doing 11+ in January? How are you approaching it? Private coaching? Working at home in the holidays? Or do you think they should just take it in their stride with no extra work at all? I thought/hoped I was going to be in the last category, but as it gets closer I get panic-ier. Any thoughts/opinions?

OP posts:
Joolstoo · 20/08/2006 15:31

why ?????????

Blandmum · 20/08/2006 15:36

My kids are too young for this to be an issue for us, and anyway we don't have the 11 plus where I live.

As a teacher I would say that it probably isn't wise to over coach your children in the 11 plus. If they are going to be happy in a school , the school has to be right for their specific needs. So if your child could only pass with a huge amount of coachng, I doubt that a selective school would be the best place for them to go IYSWIM.

Some practice in the exams, so that a child feels confident with the 'style' of questions is a different case all together

Freckle · 20/08/2006 15:36

DS2 will be taking it, as did DS1 two years ago. I will confess that I have a private tutor for DS2, not because I have any doubt in his academic ability (it would be educational suicide for him to attend a grammar school if he did not have the ability to cope there) but because he lacks confidence in his ability and therefore might panic in the exam.

In this area it is crucial that he pass as the one good high school round here operates a first preference only selection criterium (i.e. you have to put that school first on your list of selected schools or they won't even consider you - it's just a back door way of eliminating anyone who sits the 11+ because, if you sit it, you obviously put a grammar school first). So, if he sits the exam and fails, he will not get into the grammar school or the good high school, leaving him with the not-so-good school.

I think the first preference only system has been judged unlawful recently but I don't think they are banning it until the selection process taking place next year.

SKYTVADICT · 20/08/2006 15:37

My DD1 is taking hers on 11 and 18 September. We hadn't done any practice and I was congratulating myself on not buying any practice papers and being very laid back about it. Earlier this week after talking to friends and DD1 I bought some. Glad I did as she is not very good at the non verbal and it has ended in her having a private lesson with my 26 year old neice who teaches year 6. She was great at the verbal though getting 94 out of 100 and it helped her confidence no end. Don't think we are worrying too much though as we have a good comprehensive as an alternative.

SKYTVADICT · 20/08/2006 15:40

Freckle - first preference has been banned from this year and we will know the results before we choose the school (Lincolnshire) and its a much better idea. There are still a few "issues" but nothing too daunting. We now have "equal" preference

Freckle · 20/08/2006 15:46

Is it definite that it is banned from this year? All the reports I have read mention banning it for 2007/2008, but it isn't clear whether they mean for children entering secondary school in 2007/8 or those selecting in that year.

We will not know the results of the 11+ before we have to choose our schools as the application has to be completed in October 2006 and the exam results will not be known until March 2007.

Original poster
curlew · 20/08/2006 16:42

I think here in Kent the first preference thing will be outlawed in the 07/08 academic year. Too late for me, unfortunately!

OP posts:
SKYTVADICT · 20/08/2006 21:18

Yep we have the new system this year. Thats why she takes the papers on 11 and 18 September and we know the results something like 7 October and have to have our school preference in by 24 October. We won't know if she got the one we want though until March 2007 and I think thats bizarre coz surely they will know sooner than that

NotAnOtter · 20/08/2006 21:20

My daughter did it this year and she just went through papers at home - its fine - more stressful for the parents I think!

CaligulaCorday · 20/08/2006 21:22

I'm in Kent. Does this mean that if DS does the 11+ I'll need to get practice papers for him? Surely they do this in school?

tigi · 20/08/2006 22:11

My son passed, and starts a grammer in Sept. I wasn't planning on doing anything extra, as he is bright, but then other parents were saying they had all bought practice papers, and so I ended buying them too, as I didn't want his 'potential' place taken by a less bright child. I think I was a bit naive about it really. Anyway, the papers made him familiar with the type of questioning, which helped. School are only allowed to give them 3 hours of school time practice for the exams.
To be honest all we did was half an hour two or three times a week for a couple of months, and it obviously helped.

Original poster
curlew · 21/08/2006 00:37

CaligulaCorday - schools are specifically told NOT to prepare children for the 11+. The idea is that school are supposed to work towards the year 6 SATS which all children are obliged to do. Because the 11+ is voluntary and many children won't take the exam, schools focus on the SATS. This whole situation even less fair than it is already. A system which is supposed to make the best education available to all regardless of background is manipulated by the informed middle classes (like me!) so that their children are coached in the particular quirks of the 11&divid; exam and so take up a disproportionate number of grammar school places. The children of less well informed, less articulate, or less involved parents lose out yet again. OK Rant over.

OP posts:
CaligulaCorday · 21/08/2006 12:18

Yes it would seem so Curlew.

So all the middle classes basically buy their way into grammars by doing coaching, while everyone who can't afford to or is unaware of the need to, have kids who won't be able to do the exam because they haven't been trained for it? Is that how it works? Or is the 3 hours the school does sufficient to get the children up to speed with how the exam works?

Freckle · 21/08/2006 12:42

The 11+ exam is designed to test a child's ability. There is not supposed to be any coaching because that can distort a child's ability short-term and they could then struggle at a grammar school.

Having said that, it is an exam which pits child against child, i.e. they are competing against each other rather than a pre-determined pass mark. There is a pass mark, but if more children pass than there are grammar places available, then only the top scorers will get the places. It is this aspect which spurs parents into buying practice papers, finding tutors, etc.

I've confessed to having a tutor for DS2, but not because he needs to improve his abilities, but rather to improve his self-confidence. He has a very bright older brother and feels, in comparison, that he is stupid. The tutoring is to help him become familiar with the exam format (which is very different to any other type of exam they will have met to date) and to learn to trust himself.

clerkKent · 21/08/2006 12:44

DS sat the 11+ a couple of years ago. Each grammar school (there are 2 boroughs in reach with grammar schools) set it's own paper - typically two subjects from verbal reasoning, non-verbal reasoning, English and Maths. EVERY child we came across had coaching. After all, if the other children are coached, your child would be at a disadvantage without coaching.

A single 11+ would have been better - we made DS do five sets of exams!

CaligulaCorday · 21/08/2006 13:28

This is really depressing me.

rustybear · 21/08/2006 13:49

DS has just left grammar school: the only ones who struggled were two that had had lots of coaching - ds did a few non-verbal papers but nothing else

Hallgerda · 21/08/2006 16:10

curlew, my DS1 did 11+ last year. He applied to three schools, two of which were grammar schools, and each of the three had its own test. He did a number of practice papers at home. (He may have been at a disadvantage without coaching, but he got in anyway, and spending money we haven't got would have been bad for the rest of the family.)

It's worth doing a few practice papers of each type timed in order to practise working in exam conditions, and it is also a good idea to check whether there are any question types your child could learn to do better (particularly in Maths, to check that there aren't any major gaps in the school's coverage of the syllabus). If you are finding verbal or nonverbal reasoning difficult, these people sell a nice cheap booklet explaining verbal reasoning question types and their nonverbal reasoning sample papers come with booklets explaining the different nonverbal reasoning question types. I found this book useful for English - it has sample comprehension papers and lots of good general advice. And don't forget that some school websites have practice papers you can download free - here's one

All that said, I wouldn't overdo it. More than a couple of practice papers a week would be excessive, and I'd give your child a break before the test!

caligula and curlew, I agree with all you say about the unfairness of the system. However, I felt rather more comfortable with my son going through an admissions procedure in which he could do something to influence the outcome than I would have done about just passively awaiting the results of the postcode lottery.

CaligulaCorday · 21/08/2006 17:16

As long as the influencing the outcome doesn't involve shelling out shedloads of money Hallgerda, I reluctantly agree with you.

What a shit education system we have in this country. And it's been shit for years. I remember my parents going through this agony 30 years ago. I fondly imagined that by the time I had kids, all these sorts of problems would be a thing of the past.

Piffle · 21/08/2006 17:21

I'm in Lincolsnhire too and we moved here for ds to do yr 6, he did the tests in September 2 weeks after we moved, we felt that he should manage them easily and aside from showing him the format of the exams to familiarise him and a couple of WH Smoth mock ups that was it.
He is now in yr 8 at the grammar and we know of several boys who are struggling after being heavily coached in primary school.
It's a no brainer tbh.
We had the selection that forced a first choice before you got your results
What a farce, as even though we have a great comprehensive as well, you could have technically lost out on both had you failed the 11+
Scandalous
SKYTV think you must be near me

SKYTVADICT · 22/08/2006 09:03

Piffle - We are in Sleaford. Are you anywhere near?

We only have three schools, only two of which are suitable for DD!

She says she wants the comp but we are keeping an open mind till she gets to look round them both. She has only been to the comp and the high school visit isn't until the middle on the tests!

I'm waiting for her to get up and then I will tell her she is doing another non verbal test today. Not that i'm a pushy mum!!

Flamesparrow · 22/08/2006 09:12

Not read the rest of the thread, but speaking as one who passed it as a child (when it was still compulsory for girls in our area) - the ones who were tutored etc and passed were often the ones who struggled more.

I truly feel that if they are meant to pass, then they will regardless of extra help.

CheesyFeet · 22/08/2006 09:25

We have the ll+ where we are. I think it's a hopelessly out of date system but we will have to hope that dd does well as I have a very low opinion of the school she will end up in if she fails it. Fortunately we are in the catchment area for a very good primary school that has a good 11+ pass rate.

I am something of an idealist and would like to see all schools have a decent level of education so that there was no need for a postcode lottery or unneccessary pressure on a 10 year old. How many who fail the 11+ are made to feel failures by expectant parents? This must affect them for the rest of their lives.

I didn't blossom at school until I was about 13. If I had lived in an area with the 11+ I probably would have failed it. I went on to do well at school and reasonably well at university. None of this would probably happened had I sat and failed an exam at 10.

AngelaChill · 22/08/2006 09:31

I think you have to coach them because everyone else will be coaching their child and 11+ type exams can be learnt so aren't really a reflection of whether the child is bright enough or not.
I am putting my DD in for a 7+ exam just to see if she'd pass it or not as an indication as to whether we even bother with the 11+ because we are currently in a grammar school area. I'll be coaching her for that.

CheesyFeet · 22/08/2006 10:00

Angela, you're going to coach a 7 year old how to pass exams ? Do you really think that passing a 7+ will be an indication of whether she will pass the 11+? What will you do if she fails?