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State educaten makes pupils more likely to be successful at university

154 replies

Agggghast · 28/03/2014 12:54

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26773830

Found this interesting - is it because they are more used to learning independently?

OP posts:
doormouse04 · 29/03/2014 15:30

Bruffin , that's encouraging, can I ask for which course or Uni. I thought only those on the list got contextual offers.

bruffin · 29/03/2014 15:44

Bristol
Mathematics in engineering/ mechanical engineering but i think its the same for other course ie physics. I have no idea about lists. They mention contextual offers as their entry requirement and that is the offer ds was given.

wordfactory · 29/03/2014 15:44

It's ust the way it is horse

The one place has the brightest of students clamouring for places, the other doesn't.

The one place insists on weekly tutes that have to be properly prapred for (nowhere to hide). The other has less frequent and less rigorous tutes.

The one place requires students to submit weekly assignments, the other monthly!

Yet the grading system remains the same. Some of the students at the second establishment will gain a first for work that wouldn't get you a third at the other place.

MoominMammasHandbag · 29/03/2014 15:59

DS1 is a at a Russell Group. Out of the 10 people in his first year flat he is the only one who did not go to a private or grammar school. I actually find that quite shocking. Asking around, he seems to have got on his course with a grade or so lower than some of his peers (so the University is possibly practising positive discrimination), but he is in no way struggling with his course.

mercibucket · 29/03/2014 16:06

Grin oooh so cutting

yes, i write like this at work too Hmm

it is actually a conscious decision to move away from all but the most essential punctuation. as you might expect from an academic Grin . it is my theory that the internet will affect punctuation in other spheres eventually. the apostrophe will be the first to go imo.

i am always surprised anyone thinks a 2:1 from, say oxford, and a 2:1 from, say, bolton (top vs bottom of tables) would meet the same academic standards. i suppose it is because a levels and gcses are all more or less the same standard and marked at a national level.

ChocolateWombat · 29/03/2014 16:06

Horse, can't you see that what you're saying cannot be right.

If everyone at Uni X has to have AAB to get in, whilst at Uni Y they need CDD and 10% at each get a First, these cannot be an equivalent standard.
It is not like A levels which are externally marked to the same standard and an A in a subject is the same from one school as another. They are internally marked and universities give similar %s of firsts, despite the fact the intake is extremely different.
The fact that there are university league tables in itelf shows that there is a pecking order. This is not determined by what percentage get firsts, because they are of such different quality.

Employers are very aware of a pecking order of universities. Some employers will only consider applicants from certain higher ranking universities.

wordfactory · 29/03/2014 16:26

I think the biggest scandal is not that this is the situation, but that the universiities can all charge the same.

Some of them are a royal rip off, in terms of standard of education offered and value of the end qualification.

mercibucket · 29/03/2014 16:31

agree, wordfactory

ChocolateWombat · 29/03/2014 17:26

Yes, you wonder if so many people would bother to incur the huge costs, if they realised the very limited value of many of the degrees earned. I realise many people would like to have the university experience, but it is a very expensive experience if it doesn't really enhance your job prospects.

I can appreciate what the study is showing. In order to get certain grades, children from state schools generally have to work harder. Perhaps it is due to the larger classes, less spoon feeding teaching methods, and less focus on the university application process. This means those who achieve those grades have 'more about them' than their private school counterparts who achieve at the same level, but have had more help to get to that level. Perhaps the natural ability therefore of the state school educated BBC candidate is higher than that of the private school BBC candidate. Interesting that there is less of a difference at the higher grades. Seems to me, that the standard needed for an A grade these days is not actually that high.

And perhaps more determination is needed from many state school pupils to achieve at an equivalent level. Those who have that determination are also able to apply it at university. Perhaps if higher education is the norm (for private school pupils) and success in life has come easily, they might show less dertermination and make less effort, because they are not so used to it. Sweeping generalisations obviously, but might be broadly true.

The thing is, the private school pupils are still advantaged at the end of it all. Their private school experience got them higher grades than they might have achieved elsewhere, so they got into the better universities. They also had the good university advice which directed them to the most esteemed universities and most highly valued courses. The fact they were at the right schools, universities and on the right courses all looks good on their CVs, even if they have not done quite so well at Uni.
More state school pupils, with similar or even higher grades may well have gone onto do less well regarded courses at less well regarded universities. The fact they got a higher degree classification at the end of it might not count for much, because of where its from and what it's in. We know that a number of state schools have given poor advice about the impact of educational choices, ranging from not ensuring bright children choose facilitating subjects at A level (which then means they don't get the offers at the top Unis) to not making students aware of the pecking order of courses and universities. These disadvantages are greater in poor performing schools without a history of sending pupils to the top tier universities. Where parents are poorly educated or unaware of the system, they are unable to help beat these issues. Admittedly, there are state schools that offer good advice, but it is not universal.

Sorry so lomg!

wordfactory · 29/03/2014 17:38

I think many young people are being sold a pup.

Being assured of equivalence in their GCSEs, A levels, BTECs etc... then being told a degree is a degree is a degree...

It's all out and out bullshit and it makes me furious!

ChocolateWombat · 29/03/2014 17:42

The fact schools got equivalent points to GCSE or Alevel for league tables for offering BTECS and other vocational courses, led many looking to boost their league table position to encourage pupils onto BTECs etc because they were easier to get the higher grades in and made the schools look good. Never mind the long term consequence for those pupils who were capable of more academic study of not being able to get to the next stage effectively, because doors had been shut. Shocking! That trend seems to be reversing now, but not enough.

horsetowater · 29/03/2014 17:55

Well word and merci - I had no idea. I have never known this. I always thought that you were more likely to get a higher level degree from a certain University because it's a better Uni with better teaching and more demands on students.

So University fees are a complete and utter rip off. Forcing hard working students in lower grade universities to pay the same, or almost the same as those in the RG ones is unfair when those people are going to get paid a lot less when they leave.

I guess I was just naiive, but to be fair these facts aren't widely broadcast.

horsetowater · 29/03/2014 18:00

Chocolate, BTECs arent easier than GCSEs, they are different. My recent retraining in a vocational qualifications (C&G level 3) was far harder than my degree and that was in the 80s.

wordfactory · 29/03/2014 18:06

Well horse it's in a lot of people's interests to deny a problem, but it's fairly accepted in some circles, especiaslly private schools, where the kids are steered towards those universities that are more highly thought of.

Even if it means they could have got a higher class of degree elsewhere, you'll see them heading in droves for the usual suspects.

ChocolateWombat · 29/03/2014 18:20

Horse, I'm sure you're right that BTECs are different, and not necessarily easier.

The fact is that higher tier universities do not tend to accept them. They are not seen as academic qualifications. Trying to give them parity with academic qualifications for the sake of league tables, has muddied the waters. BTEcs and other vocational qualifications are certainly the right path for many people and for certain jobs. However, they are not for pupils who wish to enter high tier universities to do academic courses. The problem comes, when pupils do not have explained to them the implications of their KS4 or KS5 choices, or worse still are steered towards BTECs to boost a schools position in league tables, when GCSEs or A Levels would have been more appropriate for them.
Likewise, it is the duty of schools and colleges to make clear to students what different occupations will require in terms of degree title and institution. For example, students hoping to do accountancy as a career should have it explained to them that training contracts in Top firms will require a certain level of degree from a certain type of university. Or that a psychology degree will not qualify someone immediately to be a psychologist, but many more years of training will be needed. It's about accurate information being given so that students can make informed choices.
One of the benefits many private school pupils have over their state school equivalents, is that they are given this information....and they are strongly directed towards the most advantageous courses at GCSE, A Level and degree level. Many also have'old boys' or alumni organisations which put undergraduates in touch with other alumni who are in industries they are interested in entering....helps with work experience, holiday jobs, internships and contacts.

horsetowater · 29/03/2014 18:46

Chocolate I don't know where you get your information from but I know someone who got into an RG university on a BTEC. There are a lot of assumptions being made here.

ChocolateWombat · 29/03/2014 18:49

What course did they do and at which RG Uni?

ChocolateWombat · 29/03/2014 19:00

I have just looked at the new Informed Choices document about entry to Russell Group Universities. I don't know how to make a link to it, but if you type in Russell group university BTECS you will get to it.

They say that candidates considering BTECs are advised to look into the UNi course they are considering very carefully and that A Levels are advisable. They say that in certain circumstances, RG Unis might accept BTEc for certain courses, but this would normally have to be Ali guide A levels and distinctions would have to be achieved. They say that BTECs are not usually considered acceptable as do not deliver the academic standards required for courses.

So, they are not saying BTECs will NEVER be acceptable, but it is very clear that it is unusual and they strongly advise people choosing 6th form options not to go for them, if they want to go to a RG Uni. To keep doors open, A levels or IB are the way forward to get into these Unis. Again suggests the lack of ACADEMIC parity between vocational and academic courses.

I suspect that the people who are admitted onto these courses with BTECs are very few and often entering from an unusual route, such as mature students. Those coming from school or college at 18/19 will have A Levels.

Horse, you are not alone in thinking all educational choices can lead to top universities. The Informed Choices document is designed to deal with some of the myths. Many schools issue it as a matter of course to their pupils now, but not all do.

horsetowater · 29/03/2014 19:52

Thanks Chocolate, sorry if I'm being a bit short-tempered about this! You have been really helpful. What you say about private schools giving better careers and course advice makes sense.

I just looked at RG and it seems their aim is to maintain high standards for the purpose of research and further academia. That's great but it shouldn't need to be the holy grail for every student.

Employers probably don't always want a boffin, they may want someone with a wider experience and a different approach. So perhaps there's little mileage in putting a BTEC student with their wider experience and vocational approach in to an RG Uni. They would be happier and achieve more in an ex-Poly university.

Or is that clutching at straws?

It's fine to have different levels at different Unis, let's just be honest and open about it.

ChocolateWombat · 29/03/2014 20:01

Absolutely! Openess benefits the pupils, so they can choose the best thing for them.

mercibucket · 30/03/2014 10:34

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/10728091/The-universities-with-the-most-and-least-state-school-students.html

interesting link about the unis with the highest and lowest state school intake. sorry i cant make it a clicky link on my phone.

Beastofburden · 30/03/2014 12:24

I would hate to say that only RG degrees are worth having. We know that isn't true. There are some excellent degree courses with good links to employers in many of the new Universities. But it is also true that there are some less rigorous courses. Nt all 2:1s are the same. The idea is supposed to be that the market works so that students make informed choices of course. But of course it doesn't. It's terribly confusing for both students and parents and also some Unis have recently been ticked off for misleading advertising. I work in a Uni, and I wouldn't say I know which the good and bad courses are, not reliably. I'm not at all surprised Horse was misled by it all.

But there are some things you can go on. Oxford and Cambridge students do an average of 40 hours a week study (including study by themselves, not just teaching time). Some Unis the students do well under 10 hours a week and get one or two bits or work marked per term. Ppl get annoyed by the reputation that Oxbridge, imperial, etc have, but it is underpinned by some stuff you can actually measure.

Beastofburden · 30/03/2014 12:24

Sorry, meant to say, there are some less rigorous courses everywhere, not just in newer Universities.

JaneinReading · 30/03/2014 12:51

if you read the research paper linked on the other thread itr doesn't say that. It says some state pupils do better than their A levels suggest. However it concludes that those form poor post codes get a worse degree than expected and so do boys and so do immigrants apparently.

So the research shows those from posh homes at state comps and grammars might do better but only by 7% in their degree outcome than those at private schools. Tiny difference. If you then compare life outcomes and income it remains the case there is little you can do better for your child as a mother than earn enough to pay school fees.

JaneinReading · 30/03/2014 12:54

The other thread gives the link www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/2038977-Differences-in-degree-outcomes? and some quotes from the research.