State educaten makes pupils more likely to be successful at university

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www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26773830

Found this interesting - is it because they are more used to learning independently?

A 2:1 from Oxford may be more highly regarded if you want to become an academic but a 2:1 from London Met might be more highly regarded and more useful to someone who wants to employ you to do a specific type of work.

A degree isn't a linear achievement, it covers a wide range of academic and practical skills - just because one institution/sector prefers Oxford grads doesn't mean everyone does.

I think there are a lot of myths perpetuated by those who prefer a world where the elite are more likely to gain power. Those who like a simplistic formulaic route to success, particularly those who want that for their children. Or perhaps I'm just being a bit mean.

I like the fact that this kind of research is being done, it kind of blows those delusions apart, making the elite and the pushy parents twitchy and nervous that they can't buy their way to power.

its just not the same academic level thats all
might be great for employers but this study is not about employability

Could it just mean that people from private education are more likely than their state educated peers to have family land/ estates farms/practices/businesses/connections/hereditary peerages to support them and they have less incentive to do well as university?

I went to university with 3 people who fit these criteria and in their 40s they are pretty much all taking over Daddy's shoes as farmer/solicitor/running business.

I was responding to Beast really, who is implying that a 2:1 is not really a 2:1. Sorry but it is a 2:1, it is exactly the same level. I realise that's a different topic, but it's not right to dismiss this research by trying to say that the measures are faulty.

I'd say that's pretty likely BikeRunSki. It's not that they're not as clever, they just don't need to try as hard and by the time they've had 13 years of hothousing are probably fed up with studying by the time they get to Uni.

I don't blame them.

Fascinating discussion. I wasn't suggesting up thread that we shouldn't do anything to make the system fair if we can't make it perfectly fair, just that we need to make sure we're giving the advantage in the right place. My kids, for example, are likely to go to good state schools throughout, and live with parents who value education, drag them round museums, etc etc. I don't believe that they will be disadvantaged compared to their friends from similar backgrounds who go to private school, and am dubious about the benefit of compensating for their supposed disadvantage.

I think the difference in advantage between children at state schools from different backgrounds is greater than that between mc kids at private school and mc kids at state school. I'd want to see a system that recognised that.

Actually, this has made me realise how ignorant I am of the extent to which university admissions already take context into account. Can anyone with more knowledge explain that to me?

I'd quite like to know that too Amber.

Regarding MC children I think there's a similarity with private school but generally I think they do have a harder time at State school. Most have two parents working full time and can't supervise homework or revision - this is where private schools I think step in to ensure children aren't slacking off. And they are often left to drift at school because state schools think they're doing OK because they went in with higher levels at primary.

Some MC parents use tutors - I wonder if that's reflected in this report?

it really isnt the same level between universities you know

if you need 3 As to go to one uni, and 2 Ds to go to another, the academic entry requirements are v different.
and yet, at both, say 10 percent will get a first. how can that really be the same? It is the big unspoken truth of university.

i just wonder if there is an effect on the study because of this?

Regarding MC children I think there's a similarity with private school but generally I think they do have a harder time at State school. Most have two parents working full time and can't supervise homework or revision - this is where private schools I think step in to ensure children aren't slacking off. And they are often left to drift at school because state schools think they're doing OK because they went in with higher levels at primary

I think there is a lot of truth in this statement. Our local school is rather poor in my honest opinion, but most families are MC and with a SAHM who does intense tutoring/supervision etc.. and the work the children produce is amazing. Unfortunately this set up does not benefit the children like mine who have 2 parents with busy full time jobs and don't have the time to do any tutoring, neither the few ones with parents who do not have the skills to do this either. These tend to be the children who struggle the most and the older they got the more they are left to drift.

This is one of the reasons I switched my DD1 to private school. (Still have other children in state but they are younger).

They do a hell of a lot more at school and the results are probably the same, expect I pay the school to do it all for me and I don't have to worry about it. In all honesty I do not have the patience or the skills or the time to teach my children academic stuff anyway and the little time I have with them I would rather do fun stuff than sit down with a workbook. (They do get homework but it is always tasks they have already done at school so can be completed very quickly and independently, as opposed to what we used to get before, which was complicated stuff they had not been explained at all and there were always tears and tantrums).

I also spend quite a bit of time doing musical activities with the children as this is something we all enjoy together and we found we had less and less time to do this.

Actually, this has made me realise how ignorant I am of the extent to which university admissions already take context into account. Can anyone with more knowledge explain that to me

I know Bristol give contextual offers. A student that goes to a school with lower ratio of A/A will get a lower offer than a someone from a school with high A/A. My ds got a contextual offer of AAB against a typical offer of AAA, although his offers from other universities are their typical offers.

This is very interesting and valuable research.

The thread title here is misleading though. It is not that state education makes pupils more likely to be successful at university; it is that it makes them less likely to get as high A-level grades. Thus at university state school pupils with equivalent grades do better than students from private schools ie at university the added value given to the middle-of-the-cohort student by private education which has helped them through their A-levels no longer has an effect.

And the effect doesn't apply with the top of the cohort - ie the most academically successful A-level students from any school do just as well at university.

Merci
If you are aware that a degree in one Uni is not a degree in another Uni then that's a serious problem and you need to report it or get it addressed. It's not sufficient to imply that everyone knows that but it's just something they keep quiet to keep the plebs happy.

and Durham appears to have a contextual policy

sovery I can understand that. My dd is getting seriously messed about at school, they let her drift and convinced us all she was doing brilliantly but now suddenly the levels have dropped dramatically and we are completely at their mercy as to whether she gets through her exams. I think you did the right thing and I'm tempted to do that for her A levels.

horsetowater

sorry, that is very funny. all universities are invested in not discussing this. it is even controversial to bring it up on chat boards. who would i report this interesting fact to? what would happen?? nothing at all.

i can tell you how lecturers have to mark at my uni. the essays are laid out and banded. so within say 100 essays, 10 will get a first etc. it has nothing to do with what is written. it definitely has nothing to do with the quality compared across the sector.

Merci so what maintains the integrity of a degree? Or are you saying there is none?

The issue is that virtually all DC from private schools go on to tertiary education whatever their natural ability.

That's not the case for those educated in the state system.

Society should be more intereste din what happens after university.

yep, there is none. forgive me, i work at a uni towards the bottom not the top, so if we did maintain standards across the sector, everyone would get a third and noone would come and our uni would close and we would have no jobs.

there are external moderators but this is between universities rather than an independent outside exam board (as is the case at gcse and a level)

there are exceptions, so, say accountancy might also give external quals, and the work would have to reach a certain standard. i hope this is also the case for, say, nursing or social work.

the pressure is on more and more in this sector now so i would expect to see more massaging of results esp at unis that are lower down on league tables.

merci I work at two different universities. The difference in standards in mid blowing.

The same qualification from each establishment is not remotely equivalent (and employers know it).

The issue is that virtually all DC from private schools go on to tertiary education whatever their natural ability.

Yes if leavers from private 6th forms, maybe, but not true about all kids who ever had some private ed.

Hello all, I have looked at contextual policies and they are quite limited I that there is a list of schools for which contextual offers are made. These schools are the ones with the lowest performance. The definition is published on the uni websites. The school that my children attend is not stellar by any means so although it is astate school in a relatively poor area it is not bad enough to be on the list. No system will ever be fair but then life isn't, is it?

doormouse04

DS's school is not one of the lowest performing schools by any means, it's on the 2nd quintile for results, ds still got a contextual offer.

The same qualification from each establishment is not remotely equivalent (and employers know it).

Well you can't call it a qualification if there is no quality involved. And you can't say that one university's degree is better than another's because there's nothing to back that up other than lecturers hearsay.

And merci I can see your standards are fairly low by the fact you don't even seem to be bothered to use any punctuation on a post about education standards! I hope my children don't end up at your university.