'The Berlin Wall Manifesto' to reduce the divide between state & private schools

[AmberTheCat]

This has arisen out of a series of recent articles in the New Statesman, picking up on various politicians' claims to want to break down the 'Berlin Wall' between state & private education.

What do we think?

1. Require private schools to sponsor at least one academy, and/or work in partnership with an academy provider, giving access to facilities and staff.

1. Allow private schools to convert to state school status through the Free Schools & Academies Programme.

1. Make private school charitable status conditional on freely offering 25% of places via random lottery to the most vulnerable children. No academic selection allowed.

1. Weaken the link between private schools and top universities by providing the highest GCSE scorer in each state school the opportunity to take a guaranteed interview at their choice of Cambridge, Durham or Oxford.

1. Disclosure of private schools’ accounts to give full details of bursaries, charitable activities and their impact.

1. Agree to take part in a Cross-Party Commission dedicated to finding the most practical way to fully implement these policies.

All relative wordfactory. Recall George Harrison's 'Taxman' where there is 'one for you, nineteen for me'? This was not 100% true because it was only 90% on the top slice and The Beatles and others would have worked their way through the rate bands, so would still have been much more comfortable financially than the majority of us. None the less, most of us would admit that was a large tranche of money to be paying in tax.

(BTW didn't Paul McCartney send his children to state schools, but Stella McCartney is supposed to resent that, and sends her children private?)

LaVolcan

the vast majority of those paying 45% PAYE (and more when NI is taken in) are not multi millionaire pop stars or footballers or bankers with clever tax planners but typically professionals who have worked many years to get up there and will be paying mortgages and in many cases school fees etc. ...so yes, I think seeing more than half your salary go in taxes and NI can be called a "hefty" contribution. Do you think a doctor who spent a lot of his youth working hard and being at the top academically to get into med school, then after hard slog at med school many hours spent for years as junior doctor working his/her way up shouldn't be entitled to be "more comfortable" when they finally make it as a consultant? ....there is usually a price to pay to get to the "privilege" of that 45% tax payer status and many people are not prepared to make the sacrifices of the long hours even if they have the talent...it's usually a trade off.

Oh come off it Nibs, you don't see 'half your salary taken'. The 45% tax rate only applies/ kicks in on to the amount you earn over the threshold. Also, lots of people work incredibly hard just don't happen to have jobs which pay so well. Being 'comfortable' is something we all aspire to and of course hard work should be rewarded, but equally whatever happened to social conscience? Surely those with a bit more can afford to pay a bit more.

no-one said they should not pay higher taxes or a "bit more" smee...but when you are taking about those who "happen to have jobs" that are more lucrative, it doesn't just happen that way ...you made your choice of career at some point ...the reason why a nurse does not get paid so much as a doctor i.e. because the bar to entry for the latter is higher academically and otherwise in terms of training ..so you pay more for a rarer commodity in our system ...you also get paid more in our system if you opt for a more capitalist profession than one where you are more likely to fulfil your social conscience ...anyway this is off thread but the point is if you have worked hard why shouldn't you be able to spend your money on your children's education rather than a bigger house say. You would take away that choice because only some can afford it, whereas i think it's the best way to spend your money and my social conscience tells me I should try and get my child the best education i can get him/her.

the reason why a nurse does not get paid so much as a doctor i.e. because the bar to entry for the latter is higher academically and otherwise in terms of training

I don't thinks it's as simple as that: it's that nursing is traditionally a female profession and predominantly female professions paid less.

really you really believe that is it ? Nothing to do with the higher academics and training that doctors require? After all there are high numbers of female docs....

what I mean is both work long hours, but there is a reason one gets paid much more than the other ...

It's relatively recent though that there have been higher numbers of females admitted to medical schools. Up until at least a generation ago women tended to be pushed into nursing or allied professions rather than medicine itself.

Certain sectors of the banking industry are paid stupidly high salaries - is that to do with the higher academics and hours of training? I don't think so.

banking ....no it's because the have chosen supremely capitalist jobs that are all about making money out of money (or let's say gambling with other people's money) and that is all....and they get paid absurdly large sums (agree not deserved) because the governments allows it and has promoted financial services above all else ....but it produces little of value in reality except material wealth for those who profit from it and i guess taxes and ripple down effects for luxury goods makers, and high brand car dealers and estate agents ..not so good for those who can no longer afford a home in London ...and no inherent value to betterment of society ....unlike a top research scientist, engineer or doctor.

Stepping back though, honestly how can private education ever be fair?

I was about 5 when my Mum taught me that life isn't fair. I'm sure that suddenly having an extra 7% of children to teach (because you've abolished the private schools that they go to) will make the state system's job much easier

God, I hate that "life isn't fair, get used to it" attitude. Nothing would ever change if everyone thought like that!

You chnge things on an individual basis - you work hard at school and become that women who is on £300k and can afford school fees not by being unhappy that other women earn enough to fund them, though surely?

nibs is right about the sacrifices of thsoe of us who might pay 47% tax/NI and yes it can be on more of our money than not at the upper income levels, not just on the top £2k. There are not many women on mumsnet who have worked for 30 years full time with 2 week maternity leaves using their annual holiday as I have. There is a direct correlation between learning in and working hard years of slog and earning a lot for most higher earners, a price most mumsnetters are not prepared to pay.

"You chnge things on an individual basis - you work hard at school and become that women who is on £300k and can afford school fees not by being unhappy that other women earn enough to fund them, though surely?"

I'm no talking about changing things for yourself- I am talking about changing things for everyone. Oh and that stuff about using annual leave for your two weeks "maternity leave"? Are we supposed to applaud?

nope ...no-one is asking for applause...but the notion that some just "happen to have" lucrative careers is ridiculous..no happen to have about it, you plan for it and there is a price to pay usually for getting to that level...and then you can afford to send your kids private and hear from others how "life is not fair"

Not everyone earns their high salary. Some get it just because they 'went to the right school' or know the right people. Of course some do get there on merit, but then there's a lot of people who work incredibly hard and are still earning a pittance. Life is most definitely not fair for them.

yes we agree on that, but if that is all you instil in your children...that life is not fair ..and there is no hope ...it is not going to get them anywhere ...some people are born with better brains ...but they may be outstripped by others with a better work ethic ...i honestly think if I could not afford private school today for my kid, I would still be able to steer him the right way just like many immigrant families do ...who don't dwell on the life is not fair approach....we have the wonder of internet today ....you can do Khan academy for free, watch science lectures online, do MIT courses, teach yourself to code, get free ebooks.... things that were just not accessible before to all...and being self taught like that will impress employers and universities and can go above and beyond anything they do at school ....if you really want to get ahead ...encourage children to do that at home ....instead of dwelling on the unfairness of the small 7% who go private ...many of whom are privileged not so much because they went to a fee paying school rather than a state one but because their parents are often well educated, well connected and monied in the first place and is is that that gives them a leg up more than anything else. Abolishing private schools won't change that.

But back to the point.

There have always and will always be parents who want to segregate their children from others.
If they are rich enough, leave them to it.
Private schools get better exam results because they select massively.

Selective state schools ditto
If you abolished the covert selection in the state system and pumped resources into it, the average of children at private school would most likely stay stubbornly around 7%

If the rich want to pay again for education, leave them to it.
Its the hypocrites who want the state to fund pseudo private schools I cannot support.

Another thing

My private, selective gels school in London had classes of 30 for most things, and 20 for anything optional.

Private school fees have risen at double the rate of inflation for the last 20 years.
Many of my friends who went private cannot afford such for their kids.
Other friends who boarded have dropped down to fee paying day or sate.
Only those getting the forces subsidy are still using boarding.

That is why the UKs boarding schools have lots of rich foreigners on roll : their original market has been priced out.

and if you don't want your children to work really hard and earn a pittance then steer them towards a career (and plan for that, because they won't just fall into it generally), that does not earn a pittance. That is exactly what hard working children of many working class/lower middle class immigrant children are doing very successfully today. (Did you read the news yesterday about children who have English as a second language are outstripping many British children in terms of English bacc.)? They have a different mindset at home that is why ...no-one is telling them they are held back because there is 7% somewhere who go private...they are all aiming to be doctors and lawyers and accountants or the like...

What is going to happen to the 60% who are not University Educated or Entrepreneurial.. ?

Most of the remaining 60% will not afford to own their Home. , They will just earn enough money to pay the Rent on their Flat/ Room Electric/Gas, and Council Tax. If they are lucky maybe they will be able to afford a meal out once a month.

That is going to be the reality for most Kids leaving School today without being either Entrepreneurial or University Educated for a Career.

motown3000
You have a very narrow view of the economy if you think Degrees are the only way into good jobs.

Are you a politician?

A friend who has just bought a helicopter to go with the helipad at their house : not an A level between her and her husband.
He's a tradesman who got lucky.

Talkinpeace. I Have said the same thing about a lot of people I know on another thread the Wealthiest People I know don't have 1 A Level Between them but they are the fortunate few who are Entrepreneurial or got Lucky like winning the "Lottery".
The truth though is that your friend is "Entrepreneurial" and that is why He/She is in the Richest 0.1% of the Population.

Your Friend has not got a job, he owns is own Company.

His Company... Not Entrepreneurial or Educated So NO Hope for Me Im Afraid....

No, he does not own a company. He just got lucky on two deals and then closed his business.

BUT
there is no need for degrees to have a decent lifestyle
houses are not expensive in many areas
schools are good
transport costs are bearable
there are livings to be made for those with a work ethic but no entrepeneurship at all

Talkinpeace. Your friend if he was 16/17 Today would Probably taking A Levels and looking for a Degree course . Its just the way things are today ,even remotely bright people as 35-40% are University Bound these days not the Maximum 10% of 25- 30 years. The reality is even to be able to have the chance to use his "Brilliant" Deal Closing Ability requires A University Education

. A kid today will just not get the chance in twenty years time, your friend was able to build up a big company though his ability and no doubt though support of bank loans and overdrafts. ( Banks will not Lend to a non Educated person without Assets A dime) The same person with Guile and hard work will not be competing with 10% University or higher Educated people but 40% . It will be at least 4 Times Harder to get in to the position your friend found himself him ( without factoring that Banks will not Lend a Dime to a non Educated Person without Assets).

I have only just started posting but have been reading your posts for a while . I know you post statistics a lot and using your own Statistics the real Mean Wage in the United Kingdom is about £21- 23000 PA . If 35% of the population are University Educated another 5% have Entrepreneurial skills and they are challenging for £21-23000 PA. Jobs . What Wages are the rest looking at 12-15000 PA ? . This problem is not just going to face Working Class kids but many Middle class kids are going to be drawn in to the same situation with a Maximum earning potential of 12-15K PA.

You could just about survive on £250 A Week in A 1 bed Flat In Burnley on that ,currently the cheapest place to live in England. This is going to be the reality for many many kids leaving school.