'The Berlin Wall Manifesto' to reduce the divide between state & private schools

[AmberTheCat]

This has arisen out of a series of recent articles in the New Statesman, picking up on various politicians' claims to want to break down the 'Berlin Wall' between state & private education.

What do we think?

1. Require private schools to sponsor at least one academy, and/or work in partnership with an academy provider, giving access to facilities and staff.

1. Allow private schools to convert to state school status through the Free Schools & Academies Programme.

1. Make private school charitable status conditional on freely offering 25% of places via random lottery to the most vulnerable children. No academic selection allowed.

1. Weaken the link between private schools and top universities by providing the highest GCSE scorer in each state school the opportunity to take a guaranteed interview at their choice of Cambridge, Durham or Oxford.

1. Disclosure of private schools’ accounts to give full details of bursaries, charitable activities and their impact.

1. Agree to take part in a Cross-Party Commission dedicated to finding the most practical way to fully implement these policies.

People who go after private schools are just jealous and upset that they can't send their own kids there. I went to a private school and I see the need for them. However I won't be able to sadly send my children to private school.. ..but I am not bitter and wanting the abolition of such schools because if you can afford it, then good on you.

perhaps not many Danes go private is because they invest so much a country in state (taken from above TES article) :

DENMARK'S SYSTEM AT A GLANCE

Early years: Compulsory education does not start until age seven, but Danes enjoy unrivalled access to state-funded, pre-school education and childcare. Parents can send their offspring to day nurseries from the age of six months until they are three and to kindergarten from three until six.

Primary and lower secondary: Although formal education does not begin until seven, 98 per cent of Danish children start at six, spending their first year in a pre-school class. They then do nine years of compulsory education, usually keeping the same class teacher through the primary years and often beyond. Most attend public schools or folkeskoler, run by the local authority, though one in eight attend publicly-funded private schools, called friskoler. Pupils can leave at 16, but can stay on for a year of specialised study.

Examinations and testing: Testing in Danish schools is common but is used to check pupils' progress, and results are rarely published. Most 16-year-olds take a school-leaving exam at the end of the 9th grade (in Danish, maths and English, physics/chemistry, plus German or French) with the option of sitting an advanced leaving exam in the 10th grade. Sitting the exam is optional, but in future schools will publish results.

Class sizes and conditions: The average number of pupils per class is 18 in local authority schools and 15 in private schools. Pupil-teacher ratios are even lower, with local authority schools enjoying ratios of 10:1 and private schools 11:1. A typical teacher works a 42-hour week during term-time and works for 200 days a year. This is likely to include teaching 23 lessons a week, 40 weeks a year.

Post-compulsory education: More than nine out of 10 pupils stay in education or training after 16. Sixty per cent take job-related courses, lasting between one and four years at privately-run commercial and technical colleges, which are state-funded. One in three pursues academic or general vocational courses, lasting two or three years, in public or private gymnasiums (upper secondary school) or in specialist business or technology colleges. Most of these (70 per cent) go on to higher education.

Cost: Denmark invests more public funds in education than any other country in the world. Comparative figures (OECD, 1998) show that it spent 6.8 per cent of its gross domestic product on education compared with Britain (4.7 per cent) and an international average for developed countries of 5 per cent.

and why doesn't the Uk invest as much in education as other countries like Denmark do? Because the government chose to spend its money elsewhere like a cripplingly expensive war in Iraq...that's what you should be mad about smee, not the small 7% who elect private.

Hi nibs, no I don't think private's superior - I'm sure there are some brilliant private schools, but equally there are some brilliant state ones too. I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture, as that's what this thread is about isn't it? So imo the elephant in the room is that there's a private system at all. The only way to bring the walls tumbling down is to get rid. I'm not totalitarian, just asking for democratic equality in education. So everyone gets a fair deal in that schools are good and the same for all. I have no idea how that would happen. I don't claim to be realistic, but sometimes feel it's worth someone just stating what seems more than obvious!

You're right of course human nature is such that people will always opt out, so tutor, summer camps, etc. All you can do is make things as even as possible. Aligning state with private to me isn't the way as it's avoiding the elephant in the room, so is piecemeal, but there is a lot to be said for no choice imo. That's totally fine by me if the schools are all good!

Just on fairness, where I live for example there's a banding system, so all kids in yr6 are banded A-D and all state schools have to take 25% of their intake from each band. That's fair to me and has made a massive difference as it means no one school can carve off all the bright kids. In other words, there are some quite simple things which we could do to make schools better and more equal. Some are obvious like investment/ better teacher training, but stopping the whole 'private is better' snobbery would help a lot too.

Talkin, I can't find you a country as I haven't a clue if there's such a place, but then again I wasn't claiming to be realistic only idealistic! Conversely though, surely you can't really be arguing that by banning private schools we'd turn into a communist state?!

no smee.... the elephant in the room is that there are not enough good states available to have schools that people think are fit for purpose ...and therefore those who can afford it (and some who hardly can afford it) feel compelled in some cases to go private despite already paying hefty taxes which contribute towards education.

"3. Make private school charitable status conditional on freely offering 25% of places via random lottery to the most vulnerable children. No academic selection allowed."

Wow.
A mumsnetter once famously described the prospect of sending her child to a state school as "throwing him to the wolves"...............I can't begin to imagine the experience a euphemistically labelled "vulnerable" child would have at the average private!

If some parts of the state system are bad, why should looking to the private schools help to improve them? Not all private schools are like Eton - there are plenty of 'little private schools' around which are not especially good.

Why not look to see what the good state schools are doing, and especially those good schools which are working in disadvantaged areas, so can't be accused of having easy intakes?

One of our problems is that 'good' schools are often related to social class, and we are expecting too much of our schools if we are expecting them to iron out class differences.

"People who go after private schools are just jealous and upset that they can't send their own kids there."

Can we please have a moratorium on this particular canard?

domoarigato, am quite amused at the thought I'm secretly jealous.

Just anecdotal this, but my SIL is a product of private education and teaches in a v.good academic private school. When it came to her kids she was adamant they had to go to a fee paying school as in her opinion it was so much better than state. My brother went along with it and their kids have had an amazing education. Thing is though that it's in the private school sector's interest to self promote and make all those who work/ go through it feel that it's superior. After all if it's not why would you pay? Doesn't actually mean it is superior though. Perception is a huge sway in educational choices, mine included.

Stepping back though, honestly how can private education ever be fair? Can any of you having a go at me really say it is?

nibs, just seen your point on not enough good state schools. Don't think that's an elephant in the room, as mostly people slag off state and think it's nowhere near good enough. So yes I agree nowhere near enough good state schools, but that still doesn't justify private. Surely the best thing is to invest in every way in state. So more resources, better teachers, really valuing our schools.

Just as a case in point, what's happened in a few inner London boroughs in terms of driving up standards has been inspirational. There's so much more we can do without feeling we need to look at private education for leadership.

stepping back though, honestly how can depriving more people (and children) of exercising an educational choice ever be fair? Because that is what you are advocating....

My opinion is that irrespective of state or private/independent is that it is class room size that is the critical factor.

independent schools have significantly smaller classroom numbers, which allows for more attention from teachers and TA to the children.

As an observation DC was at an independent school, the school, for some reason (I suspect economic), increased class room size from 13 y2 to 24 y3 (no increase in teaching staff). We saw a dramatic decrease in DC's education.

I have read of (although I cannot remember where) a comparison of socio-economic factors of the parents, comparing children at private to state shows that overall state school children of similarly placed socio-economic parents have higher attainment than that their private school peers.

Having said this, I do not dismiss that there is a certain echelon of private schools, that bring significant advantages to education and outside networks at secondary and sixth form levels. I will say, though, that there is a large middle ground of private schools, that do not give this. I state that from personal observation of peers who went through the private education system who have decreased in social mobility and socio-economic factors from their parents.

If a "berlin wall" does exist, it will be because of factors external to schooling, aspiration, attainment and encouragement, an understanding of embourgeoisement and social mobility all factor. I for one have worked with and socialised with men who have attended Eton, Harrow and Marlbrough. With each they were extremely surprised to discover that I went to a state school, that at the time would have been classed as Ofstead failing in a very "ghetto-ised" part of London in the 70's & 80's.

There is, of course, many other factors in play, independent schools, technically have more money for resources. Sadly, our taxation is squandered on idiotic semi-colonial wars of the US and NATO, tax breaks for big business and those flawed bank bail-outs (and other things), rather on the real treasure of this nation, which is its people and children. So if anything its a fiscal wall which is being built.

nibs,nope am not advocating depriving people of choice - schools will never be even, but we can even the differences. Take where I live, so inner city. To try and make the system fairer they decided in my borough to do banding. So each school has to take 25% of their intake of kids from each ability band. That's really evened things up so one school can't stream off all the bright kids. It doesn't negate choice though, as each school still very much has it's own identity. You can't change that nor should you, but you can even things up in terms of making each school have the same raft of abilities and the same investment too.

mirtzapine,,,what an intelligent post ...so much better than the private vs. state simply lobbing grenades over the wall at each other.

I think class size matters more in primary than senior myself...some of the top indies have class sizes of 24, whereas prep school classes seem to be much smaller - 15-18.

I also think there is decrease in social mobility in some privates...but that is often explained by the fact that children of those who may have worked hard for their wealth may not have to work so hard themselves and may tend to rest on their parental laurels. In fact, I am convinced some children are sent to (less academic) privates just to have a largely jolly nice time and play lost of sports and do lots of extra curriculars and make lots of similar friends...we all know those schools - they don't send many to Oxbridge but they do make good social networks.

nibs777 - you say there are not enough good states available which might be an acceptable mantra for those living in a Metropolitan bubble, but I doubt whether it can be said for the whole country.

And as for paying hefty taxes - we are not a country of high direct taxation and those who can afford to pay accountants to minimise their tax bill are the wealthy - not the rest of us on PAYE.

I think large swathes of the middle classes are on a downward trend, whether their DC attend state or private.

The middle is fast disappearing.

Give state school heads the "per capita" that private schools have- then maybe you could make some fair comparisons.

"there are not enough good states available "...but surely that is the mantra of those who want to abolish private....? Because if there were, then why would you be so bothered about privates albeit they are only 7%?

lavolcan we pay fairly heft taxes, I think.

On some pounds I earn, the government keep more than I do!

martorana....you can't do that exactly ...so much of private fees these days are spent on amazing facilities....and that is also what parents pay through the nose for in some schools ....not every school can have an Olympic rowing lake funded buy the tax payer but you could invest more in smaller class sizes for a start

nibs777: I haven't made any comment on abolishing private schools so I am not quoting that as a mantra for their abolition.

I just get fed up with seeing this weary cliche that there aren't enough good state schools repeated when there are something like 3000 secondary schools and I don't know how many primary. For people to opine that the majority aren't good enough is nonsense: they are just not going to have a clue as to what most of them are like for a starter.

i agree word factory....the governments have pandered to the global elite in openly encouraging them to buy up much of our best cities and benefitting them with non -dom tax status as well as centring
the capital around financial services and the pyramid has got much narrower near the top as a result ...i think the professional middle classes on PAYE are on a downward trend (even those in highest tax bracket) given the effect the influx of the global elite have had on house prices (so many being bought for investment or buy to let) meaning steep mortgages for all those wage slaves (professional or not) who don't have an inherited pile, and even more so for their children in the future.

wordfactory - hefty (income) taxes? Not compared with earlier decades and not compared with Scandinavia.

Well I pay 45% on a good tranche (was 50% last year), plus NI, plus I have no personal allowance...so that's a hefty whack, I think.

yes but Scandinavians have a lot more to show for their taxes in terms of the healthcare and free education (often to all the way through university), working rights, house affordability and general economic well being of their population (of course they have less mass immigration and population issues than we do) .