No difference between state and private schools

[richmal]

Mr. Gove wants anyone walking into a state or private school not to be able to tell the difference. Could they not simply count the number of children in the classroom?

There are lots on this thread laughing at Gove (I dont agree with all of his ideas btw) but what are THEY doing to change things perhaps in their own schools.

handcream
What do you think people should be doing?

I don't need to change anything at my children's schools. I have one child at a fab Indy and one child at a fab state.
So, I will laugh at Gove until my heart is content and be furious at posts which suggest that certain children should be segregated and resigned to the scrap heap due to parenting styles.

Ok Gove, give me

• small class sizes, maximum 20. Ideally, 15 pupils per class in all state schools
• better sports facilities. Most primary schools have seen their budget for PE slashed, and many are having to sell part of their land
• more money for better school libraries, resources, more staff, better paid staff
• better buildings, bigger indoor and outdoor spaces, state of the art technology in all state schools

Once you have given all schools the above, I will listen to what you have to say about reducing the gap between state and private schools. Common sense should be part of the curriculum for all politicians. I'm not sure Gove would get good marks.

However, if Gove wants to give me his salary then I might do a better job of changing things for the better than he is currently managing or my primary aged child could easily do a better job than Gove for the price of a few cinema tickets and sweets

If he wants state primary schools to look like prep schools, the key is hats. Doesn't really matter what kind of hat - boater , cap, beret or something a bit more Oliver Twist.

Impatient - I think you are being rather impatient!!!

I was not saying that my old schools way of educating certain children in a remedial block was right or wrong. It was a factual statement of one schools way of educating children in the 1980's.

Actually, I have no idea how the other children were affected - if at all - as I never knew them. But I do imagine they were given an appropriate education. I do shudder at the word 'remedial' nowadays though.

However, maybe inclusive teaching doesn't work that well???? Not all children are the same, and need different kinds of education.

I do think that parents should respect the rules and requirements of the school their children attend though. I mean things like getting in on time, and encouraging their children to abide by the rules of the school.

They also need to stop changing the curriculum every 5 minutes.

blueberry exactly the point, if he wants state schools to be like private schools he, and all the other politicians, need to stop interfering and imposing whatever brand of dogma they believe in (I am being charitable and assuming he does believe in his Daily Mail readership pleasing sound bites)

The London Challenge proved what the professionals can achieve if left to do their Job properly, even if Boris has jumped on the bandwagon to take some of the credit belatedly.

The Head of our independent school regularly writes her views on the latest government initiatives and I could paraphrase , " not enough consultation especially with professionals" " not enough Evidence" " will adversely affect pupils from poor background" . The school will await developments and cherry pick any aspects that would be of benefit our pupils" " we will continue to consider alternative exams such as International and pre U "

Great handcream, yes I really want my autistic DS to be segregated from his friends and taught away from them. How forward thinking you are

If a child is academically able enough to keep up with the lowest level of differentiated work and is able to behave in a way that doesn't disrupt the rest of the classes learning they should most definitely be included they'll benefit from it.

If the child's learning difficulty is severe enough that they're massively behind the rest of the class, so have their own curriculum and are isolated from the rest of class or they really struggle to behave appropriately on a regular basis and that inc running out of classes, having meltdowns which scares peers and disrupting the class learning, is inclusion appropriate then?

On the other hand I know where I live there are only special schools for severely and profoundly disabled, someone in charge here truly believes that all children with moderate to severe difficulties will be absolutely fine in mainstream.

That person needs to give their head a shake

I agree Not - it does depend on the disability. My DM had a child last year who was I guess on the moderate level and caused a lot of disruption to the class. There was a support person allocated but she was off sick more times than not and so consequently it was a struggle. No money to pay for two support assistants.

He did have his own curriculum which made me respond to your point.

What do you define as moderate? I have good knowledge of my local special schools and the children who attend them have profound and multiple needs and are undoubtedly in the best environment for them. I wouldn't want most of the children who are currently struggling in mainstream to be lumbered into the special school because chances are that their needs are not as profound, otherwise those children would already be at a special school.

If you are talking about children who struggle to read and write and can't do maths (even at secondary level), but can walk, talk, make themselves understood, use the toilet unaided then in my opinion they should be in mainstream school even if they need some 1:1 support.

It sounds too much like 'we don't want them in our school, disrupting our lovely intelligent, neuro typical children, so send them somewhere else' to me.
At secondary level children are streamed for a lot of subjects so the precious intelligent neuro typical children won't be disrupted all day long.
If teachers are averse to teaching children who don't fit their image of ideal then perhaps they are too judgmental to be in the teaching profession.

Seldon - I'm glad you came back and clarified about the remedial block. To be honest I think of the remedial block idea as a form of unfair segregation. I am cringing at imagining the pupils in that block being made to believe that they are not as good as the people on the other side, jus because they are not as academic. Any kind of segregation can lead to one group of people feeling inferior, but when that segregation takes place daily within a class proximity environment it can be very damaging. I do agree with you about parents and children adhering to the school rules. Things like attendance, good behaviour and punctuality are things that most people are capable of but even private schools have some issues with those things.

The last government massively increased education spending and achieved very poor value from it. Basically over half the money disappears in the form of higher salaries and so on.

It resulted in higher private school fees and more spend by the state but actual output didn't really improve.

Hi impatient I'm no expert so I'll leave the classification to someone who knows what they're talking about. I'm just talking about my life I have my own disabled child who falls into mild to moderate and work with a child with the same disability who is severely affected by it and their experiences of inclusion are poles apart

Not Rtft but there is a huge difference and a worrying one. I reckon that mine are the last to go from state to Oxbridge.

Notonaschoolnight - I agree with you about inclusion meaning different things depending on the severity and type of a child's condition. But most of the children at PMLD schools could not even being to attempt inclusion in a mainstream environment and I think that the idea that there are lots of children who should be moved to special schools (not your idea, another poster) is ludicrous because those children already at PMLD schools would not be able to cope with an influx of more able and less complex children. The children at PMLD schools are often very very different to even the most challenging children at a mainstream school.

Teachers are very well paid now compared to previous years but they are under huge pressure and are not left alone to do the job that they know best. Very bad times for state schools. I know employers who wouldn't touch them.

I think children with moderate and mild sn's often struggle with the impact of spending cuts on mainstream schools e.g. Not enough hours of 1:1, children being squeezed into a space that was designed for a smaller number of children, large class sizes, inadequate sick cover, badly designed or dilapidated buildings etc. etc.

I have found this an interesting debate in that so many people want better state facilities and smaller class sizes but there has been hardly any comment on the need for better teachers. I don't agree with the ludicrous CE proposal but many schools find it hard to recruit good teachers and rely too heavily on supply teachers. Good teaching for all would begin to redress the difference.

Many of the top independent schools have a certain ethos and clientele that state schools cannot replicate. They have their, independent, way of doing things. They have uniforms that some people would not want their children to wear in a million years. Most parents just want a good school near them. It does not have to be one run on private school lines. It just has to be good with every aspect of a good school in place, eg results, high quality teaching and learning, excellent management, proven pastoral care, extra curricular activities, sound advice, good relationships with parents. I could go on.

How a school punishes is not for Gove to interfere with. He looks ludicrous by looking at the minutiae of discipline. He is also annoying the body of people, Heads and Teachers, who will deliver what he wants. He even removed the Chair of Ofsted who broadly agreed with him. He has a zeal for reform but it is beginning to look like he has little or no understanding of how to motivate people or stop himself saying the most ridiculous things. He likes the publicity I think!

State schools would probably be a lot better if they were left alone to concentrate on teaching, without interference from Governments foisting new initiatives upon them. None of these is ever resourced adequately but teachers get the blame when they don't work.

I agree with baby mummy and I have sympathy with teachers.
Unfortunately I fear that we are typical in switching all of ours to private.

OECD research shows that, if you factor out socio-economic background, children achieve significantly better in state schools than in private schools. So what exactly does Gove think state schools should be copying, I wonder?

'Children achieve significantly better in state schools '

That's simply not true

I really wish it was though!

Can't face trawling PISA for the relevant stats this evening, but the study is referenced here: www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/teacher-blog/2013/jul/04/education-private-transform-state-schools. I realise parents choose private schools for reasons that aren't always to do with academic results, but I don't think we should be quick to assume that, if only state schools were more like private, children would do much better.