private vs state research

[pickledsiblings]

Does anyone know if there has been any research into teaching methods etc. used in prep schools vs state primary schools?

I have what I think is an interesting idea for some research. Does anyone know how and to whom I could put my idea forward?

It would be focussing on the Y2 classroom in the two different types of schools and would involved teachers swapping between the settings for a brief period.

Stupid idea?

Would love to hear your thoughts.

I am not sure where the idea comes from that we ( teachers) are supposed to help with homework.

The wholepoint of homework is that the children do this themselves. It is a measure of what they can do and of what they can learn independently. Its not supposed to be done by parents (or privately hired tutors) or with their "help" ( beyond finding a place for DC to work).

Ine of the biggest problems I have at school is day pupils whop have so much "help" from parents, it clearly is not the pupils work.

I have supervised prep in school many times. I sometimes help - as in explain what is required if I can. But I am not a specialist in every subject anymore than most parents are at home.

My own DC get my support as in I provide them with supervision. I dont do work for them. The problem with doing work for DC is that they are not really learning themselves. They are not presenting their own work to their teachers and so no one really knows what they can or cannot
(the latter especially) do.

In ISI,the rule is that boarders will not be disadvantaged by being boarders, they have access to facilities and supervision. Of course no one can prevent the disadvantage that comes from parents who do work for their DC , either through boarding orat home.

Sorry, yesterday my PC was putting up all sorts of symbols in place of words. Today, it is running words together.

The wholepoint of homework is that the children do this themselves.

Since when?

As a parent your role is to support your child surely and if this means helping at home then you do that! Homework can be reading to a parent or doing some research- which may also involve an adult.

But anyway- that's off topic.

a very young...

I don't think anyone is being so daft as to say parents should do a child's homework.

the problem with NOT helping your children is that in a large class as per state schools, even if your child doesn't understand the homework, the likelihood is that their teacher will not have time to spend 1:1 with them, they may simply fall further and further behind- which is when many parents decide to employ a tutor.

Surely as a teacher ( are you?) you can see there is a difference between always doing your child's homework and helping them so they learn - so the next day or the next week they can do it by themselves?

My rule when my DCs needed help was to help them, but then to write to their teacher or pop in after school and tell the teacher that they found the homework hard and needed help.

This is where parents need to speak up- if homework is too hard then the teacher has misjudged the pupil's ability or level, or they have not taught the topic well enough in lessons.

I see all to often pupils whose work is certainly not their own ( it may be a tutor or it may be parents). I see that some parents cannot help their children beyond giving them space and supervision. I can see that in that regard some DC are disadvantaged.

In boarding, staff offer support and supervision. If a pupil cannot do the work, they will tell the teaching staff involved but they are effectively acting as a "parent whocannot do the work because it is not within their own ability". They are not acting as a private tutor or a parent doing the work for the pupil.

The purpose of prep is not to see how much help a pupil can get but to see what they can do alone and moreover, to teach them to work independently.

That I think is why at the end of the day pupils in independents do better. We teach them to teach themselves and to work things out and if they cannot, to go back and ask the teacher.

No pupil in my school ( or that of my DC) is ever penalised for saying they dont understand and asking for additional help from their teacher.
Of course, wedo have smaller and more importantly less disruptive classes I agree. Its a big bonus and one reason it may well not be possible to compare state and private.

Kitten- I too have taught in private schools and I'm afraid I don't agree with a lot of what you wrote.

The purpose of prep is not to see how much help a pupil can get but to see what they can do alone and moreover, to teach them to work independently

I suppose you don't actually know how much support day pupils get unless their parents tell you?

This may be the purpose of prep in your school but it's not necessarily the same for all schools.

I also disagree with your comment that working independently is the reason why children at indie schools do so much better. It's far more complex than that.

Re: this kind of thing is done by people in education depts of universities

I do have a research qualification (scientific research) and I work in the ed. dept. of a Uni, but not in research.

This idea is at the very early stages and I'm just trying to get a feel for whether or not there is anything worth investigating. Thanks for all your input.

JB , I know how much support my own DC get - they are day pupils.

All independents are different. Thats why they are independent. I have though taught in two with similar policies on this. My own DC are in a third, which seems to be the same. Thats all I can say.

OP
I imagine that this is the sort of research project that would be handled very superficially by a TV company or some investigative journalism- like the fly on the wall following under pupils doing entrance tests for top public schools- or through a uni dept. doing serious government-led research.

The crux will be funding.

Unless there is an outcome that will benefit children in state schools and tell us anything that we don't know already then it's a non-starter.

We already know that children in indie schools work up to 2 years ahead of state schools- they fit more into the curriculum and teach at a higher level.

My sister teaches in a deprived state primary. They also hired a planetarium when learning about space

My DTDs are in Yr 3 at a state primary. Their handwriting is lovely - lots of emphasis on it.

OP, I'm not sure what your "research" would prove. There is not one way of teaching for state and one for independent, AFAIK.

my best guess is that in orderto make anything of the research you would need a matched pairs study. That has to be hard to get as a sample.

Doing it as a cohort study in two schools is not likely to compare like with like DC wise

The other variable is the teachers' personalities.

It's not just the content of what is taught it's how it's taught.

You'd need the same teacher teaching in both schools!

Incidentally, I had this idea prior to today's news just in case any of you are thinking that I'm inspired by Gove :)

What about if the work was on on a case study basis? Can you get funding for that?

In my mind I see team teaching between state primary and local prep school for the benefit of all DC.

From my own personal perspective, my DC is in Y2 and has a fabulous teacher who just does not ask enough of him. I can't help thinking that something in the system is responsible for this.

Whilst state schools are bound by the NC, there are surely as many teaching methods used within each sector as across sectors?

There isn't a 'state pedagogy' and a 'private pedagogy'.

Golden, I suspect that state schools will have adopted many more of the 'modern' pedagogies than prep schools. Who knows, perhaps the best preps are the ones that have also done so.

I'm not being rude, but are you honestly asking if you as an individual would get state funded research for this?
If so then it's a resounding no.

The answers are already there:

-smaller classes
-motivated parents
-more support from most parents who are paying hard earned cash for this type of education
-teachers whose jobs are not ' for life' if they don't perform well
-the spectre of the CE exam pushing standards up and forward beyond a state school
-possibly higher ability amongst the pupils due to selection process

• more extra curricular activities which boost self esteem, a feeling of belonging to the school, and improves motivation.

and more....

it's not simply down to what is taught or the 'methods'.

Pickled: I agree.

And teachers will have been taught to teach in the shared state higher education system, presumably.

And teachers will have been taught to teach in the shared state higher education system, presumably.

I don't know what you mean by this?

Josephine: I mean that as far as I know qualified teachers get their PGCE's through state colleges / universities (even though fees have to be paid) and are all taught the same course. There is no system of private higher education institutions and no separate qualification for teaching in private schools.

josephine, I'm not so sure that the answers are there:

-smaller classes - the research says 'no effect' on attainment bar a small one at transition

-motivated parents - common to both sectors

-more support from most parents who are paying hard earned cash for this type of education - parents either value education or they don't, money doesn't come into it

-teachers whose jobs are not ' for life' if they don't perform well - the state sector have capability procedures

-the spectre of the CE exam pushing standards up and forward beyond a state school - no shortage of accountability or rising standards for that matter

-possibly higher ability amongst the pupils due to selection process - being rich doesn't mean your kids are clever

• more extra curricular activities which boost self esteem, a feeling of belonging to the school, and improves motivation - works both ways, demoralised by not being in A team

I'm not a teacher, but have some friends who are. I suspect that the training on the job varies quite wildly in relation not only to what courses are chosen (helping to keep control of large classes would prob not be selected for an indie for eg) and therefore the teachers would be at very different stages after only a few years, would they not?

The PGCE lasts for one year and teachers are prepared for all eventualities. Most in-school training happens in state schools too.

-smaller classes - the research says 'no effect' on attainment bar a small one at transition

-motivated parents - common to both sectors BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THE PERCENTAGES. YOU MIGHT GET 50% IN STATE SCHOOLS BUT MORE LIKE 99% IN PRIVATE.

-more support from most parents who are paying hard earned cash for this type of education - parents either value education or they don't, money doesn't come into it. OH PLEASE. SEE RESPONSE ABOVE. IF YOU PAY, YOU EXPECT AND DEMAND RESULTS.

-teachers whose jobs are not ' for life' if they don't perform well - the state sector have capability procedures BUT NOT QUITE IN THE SAME WAY. IN MY FIRST YEAR IN A POST IN A PRIVATE SCHOOL, 3 STAFF WERE ASKED TO LEAVE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE FIGURES FOR STATE SCHOOLS IT IS MINUTE COMPARED TO THE SIZE OF THE WORKFORCE.

-the spectre of the CE exam pushing standards up and forward beyond a state school - no shortage of accountability or rising standards for that matter YOU CANNOT COMPARE SATS AND CEE- CEE IS 2 YEARS ABOVE FOR THE SAME AGE RANGE.

-possibly higher ability amongst the pupils due to selection process - being rich doesn't mean your kids are clever DID I SAY THIS? I SAID SELECTION BY ABILITY TESTS NOT BANK ACCOUNTS.

• more extra curricular activities which boost self esteem, a feeling of belonging to the school, and improves motivation - works both ways, demoralised by not being in A team INCORRECT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE IN A TEAM TO TAKE PART. AND THE CHOICE OF ACTIVITIES MEANS MOST CHILDREN FIND SOMETHING THEY EXCEL AT.

Yes, but is it not that the teachers or their heads pick relevant courses for them? I was just thinking of a friend who has had a lot of trouble with a new school where the students are teens and more disruptive than the college she was used to previously. Her training on the job seems to focus much more on keeping attention and how to deal with disruptions - chosen by her head teacher. It could just be down to what the head feels she needs, or it could be that that is a problem the school faces more often and therefore is more relevant to their teachers.

I don't really want to argue about this Josephine, I responded to your points to show that it isn't that simple. I don't think any of your points are convincing enough but who knows, there have been enough inconclusive state vs private debates on MN that swing back and forth on all those issues.

I think that the answer may lie in something as yet unexplored.