private vs state research

[pickledsiblings]

Does anyone know if there has been any research into teaching methods etc. used in prep schools vs state primary schools?

I have what I think is an interesting idea for some research. Does anyone know how and to whom I could put my idea forward?

It would be focussing on the Y2 classroom in the two different types of schools and would involved teachers swapping between the settings for a brief period.

Stupid idea?

Would love to hear your thoughts.

[pickledsiblings]

I would hope that the research would allow for a two way exchange of knowledge/ideas between the sectors and I think teachers may be best placed to intuit the salient factors that allow for better outcomes. It could be to do with the amount of sport/physical activity that goes on throughout the day or time spent listening to improving speeches .

[josephinebornapart]

craggy are you accusing me of lying about my career ?


FWIW I am in contact with many top private schools across the UK on a daily basis as part of my current employment.

Which parts of my posts do you find 'wrong' and for that matter what is your experience of them?

[TheWave]

Structure of the day, timing of lessons, outside space is all so variable between schools WITHIN each sector though. Let alone all the other variables mentioned.

[TheLeftovermonster]

I think it would be a really interesting piece of research!
I imagine you'd have to break it down and define a number of teaching methods/techniques you want to research, then see how they are used in a number of classrooms at state and private schools, and see if a pattern emerges.
You can also compare structure of the day, lesson timings, curriculum, etc.
Obviously it won't produce any definite answers such as X is better that Y because..., but it will, I imagine, provide a useful picture of methods used in the classroom. And it doesn't have to be done in a 'state vs private' way at all, the focus can be on current teaching methods.

at 'completely different children' at state and private schools.

[craggyhollow]

The stuff about posh hols and more pocket money but otherwise all the same as state schools sounds completely clichéd and is utterly untrue ime

[craggyhollow]

Josephine your experiences and ideas about private school are a bit wrong

I am amazed that you have genuine experience of them

[pickledsiblings]

I appreciate you sharing your experience josephine, thanks.

What about things like the structure of the day, timings of lessons, access to high quality outside play areas etc?

Everything about the state sector just feels so second rate (except the teaching), why is that? And what's more, why does it make such a difference?

[josephinebornapart]

Pickled - I don't want to argue with you either :) but having been in education for almost 40 years, in both sectors, and having a lot of contact with private schools now in a different role, I'd like to think I know a little bit about it.

To make this a truly fair piece of research you'd need to have the same children, taught by the same teacher, but in 2 different schools and following different 'methods'. But that's the point- those of us who have posted here and have taught are telling you that the 'methods' are not really any different.

[holmessweetholmes]

I've taught in both (but secondary). I'd say that the teachers/teaching styles are the things wich are least different between state and private. What's different are the kids, class sizes, facilities, parental expectations etc. Teaching methods probably used to be different between state and private, but ime private schools have 'caught up' with the more up-to-date methods used in state schools (which is mostly, but not entirely a good thing, imho!)

[pickledsiblings]

Sharing learning objectives and success criteria isn't widely done in the private sector, is it?

[Klingyston]

There is nothing state can teach private having seen both with my children

[pickledsiblings]

I don't really want to argue about this Josephine, I responded to your points to show that it isn't that simple. I don't think any of your points are convincing enough but who knows, there have been enough inconclusive state vs private debates on MN that swing back and forth on all those issues.

I think that the answer may lie in something as yet unexplored.

[Lioninthesun]

Yes, but is it not that the teachers or their heads pick relevant courses for them? I was just thinking of a friend who has had a lot of trouble with a new school where the students are teens and more disruptive than the college she was used to previously. Her training on the job seems to focus much more on keeping attention and how to deal with disruptions - chosen by her head teacher. It could just be down to what the head feels she needs, or it could be that that is a problem the school faces more often and therefore is more relevant to their teachers.

[josephinebornapart]

-smaller classes - the research says 'no effect' on attainment bar a small one at transition

-motivated parents - common to both sectors BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THE PERCENTAGES. YOU MIGHT GET 50% IN STATE SCHOOLS BUT MORE LIKE 99% IN PRIVATE.

-more support from most parents who are paying hard earned cash for this type of education - parents either value education or they don't, money doesn't come into it. OH PLEASE. SEE RESPONSE ABOVE. IF YOU PAY, YOU EXPECT AND DEMAND RESULTS.

-teachers whose jobs are not ' for life' if they don't perform well - the state sector have capability procedures BUT NOT QUITE IN THE SAME WAY. IN MY FIRST YEAR IN A POST IN A PRIVATE SCHOOL, 3 STAFF WERE ASKED TO LEAVE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE FIGURES FOR STATE SCHOOLS IT IS MINUTE COMPARED TO THE SIZE OF THE WORKFORCE.

-the spectre of the CE exam pushing standards up and forward beyond a state school - no shortage of accountability or rising standards for that matter YOU CANNOT COMPARE SATS AND CEE- CEE IS 2 YEARS ABOVE FOR THE SAME AGE RANGE.

-possibly higher ability amongst the pupils due to selection process - being rich doesn't mean your kids are clever DID I SAY THIS? I SAID SELECTION BY ABILITY TESTS NOT BANK ACCOUNTS.

• more extra curricular activities which boost self esteem, a feeling of belonging to the school, and improves motivation - works both ways, demoralised by not being in A team INCORRECT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE IN A TEAM TO TAKE PART. AND THE CHOICE OF ACTIVITIES MEANS MOST CHILDREN FIND SOMETHING THEY EXCEL AT.

[pickledsiblings]

The PGCE lasts for one year and teachers are prepared for all eventualities. Most in-school training happens in state schools too.

[Lioninthesun]

I'm not a teacher, but have some friends who are. I suspect that the training on the job varies quite wildly in relation not only to what courses are chosen (helping to keep control of large classes would prob not be selected for an indie for eg) and therefore the teachers would be at very different stages after only a few years, would they not?

[pickledsiblings]

josephine, I'm not so sure that the answers are there:

-smaller classes - the research says 'no effect' on attainment bar a small one at transition

-motivated parents - common to both sectors

-more support from most parents who are paying hard earned cash for this type of education - parents either value education or they don't, money doesn't come into it

-teachers whose jobs are not ' for life' if they don't perform well - the state sector have capability procedures

-the spectre of the CE exam pushing standards up and forward beyond a state school - no shortage of accountability or rising standards for that matter

-possibly higher ability amongst the pupils due to selection process - being rich doesn't mean your kids are clever

• more extra curricular activities which boost self esteem, a feeling of belonging to the school, and improves motivation - works both ways, demoralised by not being in A team

[GoldenBeagle]

Josephine: I mean that as far as I know qualified teachers get their PGCE's through state colleges / universities (even though fees have to be paid) and are all taught the same course. There is no system of private higher education institutions and no separate qualification for teaching in private schools.

[josephinebornapart]

And teachers will have been taught to teach in the shared state higher education system, presumably.

I don't know what you mean by this?

[GoldenBeagle]

Pickled: I agree.

And teachers will have been taught to teach in the shared state higher education system, presumably.

[josephinebornapart]

I'm not being rude, but are you honestly asking if you as an individual would get state funded research for this?
If so then it's a resounding no.

The answers are already there:

-smaller classes
-motivated parents
-more support from most parents who are paying hard earned cash for this type of education
-teachers whose jobs are not ' for life' if they don't perform well
-the spectre of the CE exam pushing standards up and forward beyond a state school
-possibly higher ability amongst the pupils due to selection process

• more extra curricular activities which boost self esteem, a feeling of belonging to the school, and improves motivation.
  

and more....

it's not simply down to what is taught or the 'methods'.

[pickledsiblings]

Golden, I suspect that state schools will have adopted many more of the 'modern' pedagogies than prep schools. Who knows, perhaps the best preps are the ones that have also done so.

[GoldenBeagle]

Whilst state schools are bound by the NC, there are surely as many teaching methods used within each sector as across sectors?

There isn't a 'state pedagogy' and a 'private pedagogy'.

[pickledsiblings]

Incidentally, I had this idea prior to today's news just in case any of you are thinking that I'm inspired by Gove :)

What about if the work was on on a case study basis? Can you get funding for that?

In my mind I see team teaching between state primary and local prep school for the benefit of all DC.

From my own personal perspective, my DC is in Y2 and has a fabulous teacher who just does not ask enough of him. I can't help thinking that something in the system is responsible for this.

[josephinebornapart]

The other variable is the teachers' personalities.

It's not just the content of what is taught it's how it's taught.

You'd need the same teacher teaching in both schools!