We haven't had a state vs private debate for a while! What did you think of the Fiona Millar programme on schools?

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Well?

it just seems so wrong that I have 3 primary schools all within catchment and DS is excluded from one of them even though I pay for it out of taxes. Agree aloha - why can't the RC church pay for all of it?

Aloha:

1. It is a truth universally acknowledged that it is easier to get things done and influence people if you are educated and articulate. How can it not be damaging to education as a whole if such a sizeable swathe of educated and articulate parent-power is directed not in the state sector, but in the private sector?

2. I think that private schools have an ongoing pernicious influence in that those 7 per cent of coached and hothoused children have a disproportionate effect on the system as a whole - as I posted on my earlier thread, the top private schools are exam-coaching machines for the most prestigious universities. Those people are in turn more likely to send their children to private schools, partly because they can afford to, partly because they genuinely believe that that is "doing the best" for their children. And so it goes on.

no, sorry marialuisa - I was just referring to the RC primary school near me (see early post) - not wishing to offend catholics just using it as an example.

marialuisa, the level of ignorance around this issue is astonishing, as you will find if the discussion continues.

ds is down for a catholic school, so i am as well! he's also down for the local community primary. chances are he won't get in to either one.

as i've said many times before, i have a lot of sympathy for the argument that faith schools should not be funded by the state.

but whenever the issue of faith schools is discussed, i'm always amazed by the v. poor knowledge displayed.

bk - what do you mean?

scummymummy - I am lucky in that I have worked at a VERY good state school in Derbyshire, worlds apart from my current job. If that was my local school then I would most definetly have considered it. But it isn't BTW I am getting out of it in July. Think I found a lovely new nursery for DD this morning so once our place has been accepted by notice can be handed in.

Marialusia - you have a good pount there. When I first asked for advise on here about quitting this job not one person told me I was doing wrong by the state system by doing so. Yet when I suggest that I am not prepared to put my own daughter in that same situation it is somehow very different and wrong.

BTW, before any one judges my background wrong. I did not go to private school, nor did DH. We both went to state schools at both primary and secondary level. DH's middle school was rubbish - by the sounds of it he learnt nothing there (long time ago, different systems) but his secondary school was, and still is, a very good school for the area. My secondary school is a typical working class background school, middle of council estate - some definetly not good areas (I know, I lived there). Both DH and myself have done well out of the system - both got degrees, I'm now a teacher, DH a solicitor. But IME schools have changed drastically since we went, and sadly many not for the better.

post crossed there bk but I question still stands. poor knowledge of what?

kr, well you corrected yourself in a subsequent post, but from your earlier post, the one marialuisa responded to, it did seem as though you thought faith schools were only catholic.

usually, when this topic comes up, a number of people are amazed to discover that faith schools get state funding.

in terms of catholicism specifically, little appreciation of the fact that in this country it is primarily an immigrant religion, and therefore the community is ethnically and socially diverse.

of course I realise that there are a various different faith schools not just catholic. My original point was near me there is a very good RC primary and I know of at least 3 people who have had their children christened catholic specifically so they will be able to go to that school- they themselves are also christened catholic but are not practicing catholics. I just don't see how that is fair. Really is nothing to do with catholics per se I was just using it as an example

I am just amazed at the lengths some people will go to, katierocket.

kr, i appreciate you know that now that you have said so. i agree with you that it is sad that people pay lip service to a religion to into a good school. i think it is in the same category as lying about your address to get into a school.

Bossykate - I didn't think you were having a go at me - it was more me having a pop at myself!

Maybe because of my torn ethics, I can see validity in both Dinosaur and Aloha's views. I'm probably more closely aligned with Dinosaur (complete with similar experiences - I didn't go to Oxbridge, but St Andrews was stuffed with privileged ex-English private school kids), but I'm with Aloha on the double standards of restricted access to faith schools.

On a point of interest - I'm not aware of any state funded Muslim schools in Scotland - despite having an extremely large local muslim community in Glasgow (and the country's only Muslim MP). Can any of the Scots tell me otherwise? The local catholic primary school has a high proportion of muslim kids - presumably because it is the "closest" to the values that they wish to teach.

I personally think we should go the French route and make all state schooling secular (although again personally I think they've gone a bit far with the ban on headscarfs etc).

On Aloha's "Macdonald's" analogy - I see what she's getting at - but it's the chicken and egg problem. How do you get the kids there to START that improvement process?

JanZ, my view is that the children cannot and should not 'start' the process at all. The school must improve from the top down not the bottom up. A failing school IMO CANNOT be improved merely by shipping in cleverer/posher kids. As I said before, the most improved secondary school in the country in 2002 didn't get that way by changing the pupils. It changed the head and many of the staff, turned into a specialist language college, completely changed its ethos and discipline policy, and improved dramatically. That's the point of my McDonald's analogy.

Off topic slightly but I heard a really interesting discussion about faith schools on radio 4 - it was really about whether single faith schools were a good idea - argument for; they are vital to maintaining/continuing a religion and also a 'right', or whether children should be taught together but given a rounded religious education - argument for; more likely to develop understanding tolerance etc.

I really could see both sides to the argument but in the end, favoured the none single faith route (but then I suppose, being an atheist, I would say that).

Bossykate I am showing my ignorance here quite freely as have never had to consider the topic of faith schools - however I have a notion that not all faith schools are entitled to state funding - RC and Jewish yes, but Muslim no? Is that correct? (As I said, freely admitting my ignorance, no connection with faith schools anywhere along the line.)

I think other people have hit on other points here I found hypocritical but others found okay:

Why is it okay to move house in order to be in the "right" catchment area? To do this I woiuld have to increase my mortgage by quite a few (we,, a heck of a lot actually) thousands. I have chosen NOT to do this but instead use the private sector. Why is this wrong and the other alternative okay? I just don't 'get it', sorry.

If we are going to scrap private schools then I also assume we are going to scrap every other aspect f choice in our's child's education. Every child MUST go to their nearest school, primary and secondary regardless? Surely that is the only way to be fair? But then how are we going to stop certain areas being better than others? Maybe someone has to prove they have lived there for a certain length of time? That they have other reasons for living there than just the school catchment? Where does it stop?

Why can I not be allowed to choise what is best for my child and my circumstances, without being accused of all sorts, many of which are not true.

Why is is okay for me to pay for private nursery care for someone to look after my child until she is 4 years old, and then have to stop paying for her care/education? The school we have chosen costs no more than full time child care, and is in fact cheaper!

If I did send DD to a state school how do I arrange for someone to be there to to take her to school and to pick her up and look after her until I egt home? I can NOT arrange to start late and finish early because of my job. So, do I have to pay out for this care? Again, the school I have chosen includes this care for me in its fees.

I already said that other things are included in these fees too - other enrichment activities that I would otherwise have to pay for seperately.

So, private school isn't just a choice about at taype of school or principles you know? There are lots more factors to take into account.

Aloha - I agree with your thoughts on improving schools. I certianly feel that is what needs to happen at my current school. Maybe a whole new start for everyone?

I think Ms Millar's views are basically, if you want to eat out, you shouldn't be allowed to choose between Pizza Express oor the local kebab establishment that has just failed its health and safety inspection and has rats in the cooking oil. Instead, the state will choose for you. Bad luck if you (or your kids, more to the point) get the rat infested kebab shop and get food poisoning. She tends to think if educated, middle class people are forced into the kebab shop that will clear up the rat problem. But of course, it is the other way round. If it cleaned itself up, changed the oil, changed the decor and seating, offered good healthy food served by polite and efficient waiters and called itself, say, Cafe Med, then those supposedly sought-after clever/posh families might actually choose to eat lunch there. But even if they didn't, it would still be a better place for everyone to eat.

I really didn't think that this debate had turned into an accusatory one.

I would not criticise the personal choice of any parent - but I do think that in some walks of life, the personal choices we make impact on others. Education is one of them.

Hb, all your reasons for making your choices are valid ones. Just because I have a principled disagreement with private education does not mean that I pass individual judgements on people who don't agree with me - honestly.