We haven't had a state vs private debate for a while! What did you think of the Fiona Millar programme on schools?

[WideWebWitch]

Well?

Aloha, of course schools can be massively improved by "top down" intervention. Of course. The reason DS1's school is good is primarily because it has a good and tough headmistress. The nucleus of committed middle-class parents has followed on from that, rather than creating it in the first place.

dinosaur - that is fine. I agree that we all have to make our own choices for whatever reason. So long as they are well thought out and the best you can make then that's it. I just would like to think more people were researching into education much more than some do (not directing that at yourself BTW) rather than making wild judgements about others' decisions.

Batters - I agree, lying in order to get a place at any school is always wrong whether it is for a religious school or a good state school.

Erm, hang on, Hulababy, I post that I don't make individual judgements about other people's choices.

You don't agree - "lying to get a place is always wrong"...

Dinosaur, thanks! I didn't think I was getting my point over at all. I really think we have to stop blaming parents and planning ever more draconian ways force kids into failing schools, and tackle the schools instead. It just seems to obvious to me, but not to Fiona Millar.
And I don't see anything immoral about pretending to be religious to get your child into a faith school.After all, why shouldn't your child go there? You pay for the school as much as anyone else.

I think it's immoral to reject children from a school because of their parent's beliefs.

Something has struck me in this. Sort of mentioned it earlier. Where I live now there is plenty of choice of school. My son goes to a cofE school (no idea how its funded) and I'm atheist, have never been asked about my religion and other faiths attend the school. Our local school (his is in a different LEA) is oversubscribed, as is the next closest (athough we were offered a place there even though we're out of catchment).

So the thing that stikes me is- Why do we have all this choice of schools? These schools are all good- I wouldn't send ds1 to our local school as they are too far up the league table and not very good with difference- but the others all good highly sought after schools. So it may be simplistic, but does London/SE simply need more state schools? Or would you stil get the same problems?

Sorry dinosaur - I guess that did sem hypocritical. I will rephrase.

I don't make individual judgements about people I mean and would never dream of personally having a dig at anyone on here or in RL. I haven't had chance to read everything on herr so not sure if I was actually singly anyone out. I apoligise to that person if I did; I am not on MN to insult or offend. Anyone who knows me will know that.

However, I just don't believe in lying about important stuff, full stop - not just about schools and education. That's all I meant - not having a dig at anyone. If that makes me unjustifiably judgemental then maybe I am. But I am just generally a honest person and even for the best for my child, couldn't do it myself.

Right now I have friends who send their kids to the local state schools, go private, send their kids to a Catholic school because they are Catholic and even ones who are currently busy lying to get their ds into the local CoE school (!) and one friend even home educates. They are all doing the best for their kids and I don't condemn or judge any of them. My views are about systems not individual parents. For ds I'd like a small school with small class sizes, and I don't think I'll get that in the local state sector, sadly.

Marialuisa - is that just the case in England? As I say, I'm not aware of any state funded faith schools, other than Catholic ones - in Scotland. In fact I seem to remember a debate complaining that the Muslim secondary school in Glasgow (since closed) COULDN'T get state funding.

Very good point Jimjams.

But I also wonder how many parents are like you (by your own admission) and have simply never considered state schools for their children? There are certainly stacks of people in the law firm where I work who simply would not think of sending their children to state schools.

I don't think the 15% is made up by the other parents though, so I (the theorectical I in this case) am paying as much as the other parents. I imagine most of the rest of this derisory sum (how on earth does funding a mere 15% give the church the right to discriminate in this most vital area of people's lives?)
I imagine the money comes from the historic wealth of the church.
Jimjams, I have no idea but am envious!

Sorry, didn't make that very clear - was sort of lumping faith schools in with private schools, which is obviously incorrect. What I was trying to say was, I'm not sure whether more state schools alone would solve the problem in London/ the South East.

marialuisa - but 85% of it is state funded right? so the majority of the schools funding and therefore the majority comes from taxes etc

I don't really understand the difference between state schools and non-paying church schools (apart from the entrance criteria) Why are the church ones so much better? Does the church fund them?

Church schools are selective, of course. It is easy to smuggle in selection for more educated parents, brighter kids etc etc under the cloak of selection for religion.

dinosaur- there will be loads. The ludicrous thing is I had been to a good state school, I like you went to Oxford from a state school, I also went to a private school for a few years and there was no difference in the standard academically (more music at the private school). And yet until it was forced on us I never even considered state. Now I can't believe I was so daft. That's what I meant eas=rleir when i compared it to gym membership.

Having said all that I have just worked out that over the next year we will be paying £100 a week for speech therapy and a part time (saturday) ABA course for ds1. That's the price of a priavte school without the bloody added extras. I am not happy!

I still think that if you want an exclusive club, you really ought to pay for it yourselves.

But are these church schools state funded?

Yes, 85% state funded.

Maybe then they could select 15% of pupils on the basis of religion.

Seems very odd to me that if they are state funded they get to pick and choose their pupils. There is a good catholic primary school a stone's throw from my house. I was brought up a catholic but am not religious myself, ie never go to church and don't believe in god, didn't even get married in a church. DH was brought up with no religion. So does my dd get to go to this school just because I was brought up a catholic? Or do I have to go to church (fat chance!)