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Education

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Original poster

We haven't had a state vs private debate for a while! What did you think of the Fiona Millar programme on schools?

528 replies

WideWebWitch · 05/03/2004 20:27

Well?

OP posts:
marialuisa · 10/03/2004 15:28

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Sonnet · 10/03/2004 15:31

Don't know Marialuisa - not my age group either

Aloha - a genuine question now coz I'm genuinly interested:
What are your feelings towards Steiner Schools becoming part state funded? - I seem to remember from another thread that you expressed an interest in that - apologies if I'm wrong I'm not very good at remembering names!

Jimjams · 10/03/2004 15:33

Aloha- but I'm atheist, neither of my son's is baptised, and we still got into a faith school (in fact were given a choice of 2) so I can't see where the huge divisiveness comes in.

I would like to see all sorts of schools state funded. State funded steiner and motessori schools would be a good start (or part funded). Diversity doesn't have to breed bigotry.

aloha · 10/03/2004 15:34

Actually it's certainly not personal for me - my local schools aren't sectarian. My interest in this is 'pure' if you like!
No, nobody's denied an education, but if certain companies refused to employ Catholics and others refused to employ Protestants you can say that nobody was being denied employment, but it would still be wrong, don't you think?
I've said it before, but...If you think it is wrong that someone would be turned down for a job in the Civil Service or NHS solely on the grounds of their religion or lack of it, then you must surely understand that it is wrong to turn children away from schools on the same grounds. You surely cannot morally or logically disagree with the former yet approve of the latter.

But I give up. I suspect lots of people would think it is wrong for a company to have a deliberate policy of not employing Jews, but they won't say so.

Sonnet · 10/03/2004 15:34

Aloha - I don't benefit from the RC school system at all - (have connections to our local RC school through the local Rc church)

Sonnet · 10/03/2004 15:43

Sory Aloha I don't understand the referance to jews and employment.
I will say it is wrong for a company not to employ jews - don't understand your point.

I don't disagree with oyu about funding - but I disagree about making all schools non sectarian - that is taking away my freedom of choice and I WILL NOT be dictated to about what i should and shouldn't be allowed to believe in. if religion underpins the fabric of your life it stands to reason that it effects your choice of eduction. This is not a personal statement as it didn't effect my decison about the school my children attend - but it does for many other people I know.

It is a shame that this thread has become so focused on religion because there are many Gems buried in this thread that would be worth the discussion re improving the education system in this country.

marialuisa · 10/03/2004 15:45

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Sonnet · 10/03/2004 15:46

Jimjams - I agree wholeheartedly with your 2nd paragraph - freedom of choice for how your children are educated NOT the postcode lottery we've got now!!

dinosaur · 10/03/2004 15:49

Would you ever send your child to a state-funded school Sonnet?

donnie · 10/03/2004 15:51

well, personally I hope my dd gets into the local CofE primary school.It's a good school plus we are regular church goers by choice and I want that for her. I have no objections to the fact that in my borough and just outside it there are Jewish schools. Why shouldn't there be? wouldn't it be discriminatory to deny Jewish children a Jewish school? there is a big Jewish population around here so it makes sense. And why should my dd, as a Christian, be denied a Christian education? I really can't understand why all these atheist parents are getting so het up.Just send your children to non denominational schools, of which there are plenty.
I have been following this thread with interest and would like to say Rock on Sonnet, you are an eloquent and perceptive contributor.I agree with pretty much everything you have said.One thing that does annoy me though is people who pretend to be religious to get their kids into a particular school - what is the point of that? it deprives the children whose parents are truly religious of a school place which should be theirs.And if those children are then forced to attend non denominational schools then they are being discriminated against.Simple really.

Sonnet · 10/03/2004 15:58

How about this:
up the road from the tiny village in which I live have been built 2 executive estates. to serve these estates they have built what they are calling a "new concept school" from 4 to 18. It is getting rave reviews and apparently money thrown at it right left and centre and the headmaster from a secondary School with the best reputaion across 2 counties is to head it up.
I'd love my DD's to go there - it s on my doorstep, is walkable and only 3 minutes by car. BUT My children are not allowed to go there because our postal address isn't one of these executive estates. We could afford tomorrow to buy one of these executive homes and therefore the right to attend the school but we don't - why not? because it is our choice to live in a draughty country cottage in the surrounded by fields in the summer and mud in the winter - in our opinion a great way to bring up kids.
I could shout "DISCRIMINATION" but I don't because I choose not to live there, the same way non catholics choose not to be catholic - so shouldn't shout "DISCRIMINATION" because they cannot go to the local RC School.
I know I'm a "simple Soul" but to me it is simple...

dinosaur · 10/03/2004 16:00

So you would have sent them there if you were already in the catchment area? It's only because you're not in the catchment area that they go to private school?

Sonnet · 10/03/2004 16:06

Yes I would dinosaur - in fact would love to have a decent one I could get to....I believe in a good education for all. see post above
I chose to opt out of state education because

  1. Local primary underfunded, poor classrooms, poor results - was horrifed when visited. The way the children asnwered back the teacher....
  2. Local RC School - my preferred choice - was too far in the opposite direction from where I worked - IYSWIM
  3. Private Pre-prep my daughter attends is next door to where I work - hugh plus for attending assemblies etc, dropping up and picking up
  4. Multi-cultural eduction/religion - impt to me as live in a WHITE m.class area
  5. Far superior facilites, better balance between academic and other pusuits
  6. No SAST thingys...don't beleive in tests taht early in school Life

YES - i am very lucky that I can afford that option. Take a lot of flack for it and I am sure DD's will in time when applying for uni jobs etc.
My defence is that i am taking 2 children out of the state system while still contributing to it which eases the pressure for other children - IYSWIM....

Sonnet · 10/03/2004 16:08

sort of right dinosaur - see later post. That particualr school was not built then when I made the decision - in fact still only 1/3 built and due to open in Sept....

Sonnet · 10/03/2004 16:10

Not ducking out of this discussion Dino - got to go to pick up girls....

dinosaur · 10/03/2004 16:14

No worries. I am actually meant to be doing some work!

Sonnet · 10/03/2004 16:57

Thanks for the support Donnie - I too disagree with "faking" religion to get into a faith school.
It was actually the point that made me contriute to this thread.

aloha · 10/03/2004 18:09

Sonnet, my point is, if it's wrong to deny a Jew a job in an organisation because of their religion, how can it possibly be right to deny a Catholic a place in a certain school, or an atheist or anyone else. Either we are against discrimination on religious grounds or we are not.

aloha · 10/03/2004 18:35

As for the issue of choice, you might equally, as a Catholic (just for example) like the 'choice' of only working with and employing fellow Catholics in your own company - but you wouldn't be allowed to as it is against the law.

aloha · 10/03/2004 18:40

And why 'should' a place in any school 'belong' to a person because of their religion? In my book, if we all pay for the school we all have a right to use it. I tend to think that if you want a private club you really ought to pay for it yourself.

Tinker · 10/03/2004 18:46

But there is really no such thing as a non-demoninational school. All schools must have some sort of act of worship (which will be Christian). I am completely with the view that education should be about just that - educating to ask questions and explore your thoughts. Religion should be left to the home and the church (Sunday schools?).

Very encouraged to see that Philip Pullman's books are to be used in schools to encourage debate. Be interesting to see if this happens.

Out of curiosity I checked out the Ofsted report for my old school. It said that despite the national trends, girls do less well and it couldn't pinpoint a reason. Nuns as role models?

aloha · 10/03/2004 19:01

I've said it a million times before (though I am clearly expressing myself very badly today) that I am pefectly happy for anyone to have the choice to practise whatever religion they like. Of course, go to Church, sing hymns, say goodnight prayers, celebrate festivals. I am glad you are happy with your beliefs and lifestyle.
All that I oppose is segregated schooling run by religious organisations but paid for out of the public purse. IMO school is for education, not religion. Just as work is for work, not for religion. We don't expect to be segregated in adult life, so let's start as we mean to go on. That's all.

katierocket · 10/03/2004 19:09

think thread is in danger of going round in circles now. Have to say though IMO no-one has yet come up with a convincing argument against Aloha's "why is it OK to discrimminate at school when you wouldn't accept it anywhere else"

Jimjams · 10/03/2004 19:49

katieroacket you call it discrimination i ca,, it diversity.

I still don't understnad why there is a huge objection to faith schools when they aren't turning people away on religious grounds. i haven't ever pretended to be religious, I couldn't attend church with ds1 even if I wanted to - and in the whole process of applying to the school I wasn't once asked about my religious beliefs (or lack of). I was warned that they couldn't guarantee a place but that was because I live 8 miles away in a different LEA - I was still welcome to apply. The faith schools that do select on religion are surrounded by schools selecting on postcode.

aloha · 10/03/2004 22:03

Katierocket, I think it is unanswerable!
Jimjams, I am delighted that you have found a good environment for your ds. I still think the moral case is unanswerable though. Most sectarian schools do refuse to admit children from different religions or none - yet happily grab everyone's cash.
If it is wrong to refuse jobs to people on the grounds of religion, then it must be wrong to refuse children school places on the same grounds. If you think it is wrong to refuse to employ Jews on the grounds of their religion it makes no sense to support the banning of Jewish children from state funded schools.
UK state schools do NOT select on income. No state school in the UK asks for details of parental income. There is a huge difference morally between an accident of geography and the behaviour of parents and an officially sanctioned state policy which deliberately and carefully distinguishes between children purely on the basis of their parents' beliefs. It is discrimination in its purest and most simple form. That is what I oppose. I do not condemn parents who take advantage of an unfair system, but I do condemn the system.
Yes, it doesn't harm me, but neither did apartheid, and I opposed that too.