We haven't had a state vs private debate for a while! What did you think of the Fiona Millar programme on schools?

[WideWebWitch]

Well?

I must say that, while I don't feel as strongly about faith schools as many do on this thread, I do agree with Aloha that there is a limit to which you can "choose" your religion or faith. I mean, DH "chose" to be baptised so that we could marry in an Anglican church, but that doesn't mean he could suddenly "choose" to believe in something that he hadn't had any truck with for the preceding 28 years of his life. I'm a wishy washy agnostic but I couldn't "choose" to become a devout worshipper now - at the very most I could make my mind more open to the possibility of faith, and pray for some sort of Damascan conversion...but that's not really "choice".

BK - my original post today was in response to the question what can we learn from the success of faith schools.

My point is that schools which can select their pupils will always do better on league table measures than schools which can't. Unlike state schools which roughly work on distance-to-school criteria, faith schools are able to set their own admission criteria. The flexibility of faith criteria means that they are able to cherry-pick their pupils. Say a faith school is over-subscribed (as is almost always the case, as they are perceived to be 'good' schools). Then what criteria is used?

but if you decided to fake it, dino, at least it wouldn't cost you... not that i'm advocating faking it.

jimmychoos, it is things like distance to the school, whether there are siblings already there - just bog standard stuff that state schools use.

i'm sorry the cherry picking is a paranoid fantasy - at least in our parish.

just out of interest, how does an oversubscribed faith school in your parish choose - is it just first come first served?

aloha if you want to worship fairies or trees or river spirits, that would be your choice would it not?

great post below sonnet

but if you think it's a load of b* then how can you "choose" to believe it

That's interesting BK. I know that many faith schools in my area interview the parents before selecting - I gues they need to talk to them face to face to ascertain a sibling link/ distance from the school!

dino - as per your post below , would it not be your choice not to believe?

the catholic junior school was full when we moved and would not accept and extra two pupils in one class - so i appealed and got a letter from the priest ... how many dya reckon i see in church out of all the school? not many

yes of course custardo but the point I was trying to make is that it doesn't work the other way round - a person cannot "choose" to believe in something that just doesn't ring true with them - e.g. Aloha says that it would be no more possible for her to choose to believe in a Christian faith than in ring-fairies or whatever

will go away now as am really not interested in faith schools argument, my bone is still with selective and private schools and i've said my piece several times over on this thread already

But Sonnet one of Aloha's points (and I'm sure she'll say it herself) is that why should the state i.e. tax payers pay for faith schools? you said
"In addition the "choice" a parent may have in how there child is educated and what is and what isn't important is reduced. "

But I don't have the "choice" to send my child to the local RC because I'm discrimminated against on the basis that I am not RC. But part of my taxes funds the school.
how is that fair?

Hi Jimmychoos - I asked that question. I can only speak for catholic schools not any other faith so bear with me while i explain the selection criteria for them.
As a Catholic I have a local parish church. If lucky that parish supports a primary school - more generally though now ( and geographically dependent)there is 1 school to 2 or 3 parishes.
A childs eligability for that parish school is that they are baptised a catholic. Some RC schools expect church attendance, some don't bother - IME anyway - therefore there is no true selection procedure based on postcode, income or academic ability.
For secondary school eligability is from one of the primary feeder schools or the fact that one is a catholic who may have gone to a non RC primary school. A certificate of baptism is needed to prove baptism.
Catholicism spans all social classes and in fcat there are many successful schools in what would be considered to be "poorer" areas of the UK.
As I have already said this is based IME of the catholic school system only. I have heard that some Cof E secondary schools do operate a selection criteria based on ability - but stand to be corrected.
I beleive that RC schools in particular are perceived to do better that comparitive state schools because of:

1. Less interevention from the government, more of a say how budget is spent.
2. A feeling of comunity - many of the children and parents already know of each other from mass and church funtions. The church supports the school, the school the church and there is more of an old fashioned sense of community about belonging - IYSWIM I would like to add this is in my experience only before I get shot down in flames.

Sonnett - thanks for that - really interesting. I think you are right about the 'community' aspect of a school being so important and contributing to success.

Katierocket - earlier on I did say that:"Aloha - personally I don't agree either that they should be state funded. Currently 2,094 catholic shools currently receive some level of funding - what the remaining ones do I don't know. BUT how will abolishing faith schools help the current situation? - surely removing funding will mean many faith schools will close, or if in an affluant area will become independent. The state will be unable to take over the funding of all faith schools so it will mean less schools not more."
RC schools do take non-RC children Katierocket and the education that child receives is partly funded by the catholic church. I acknowledge that the state pays a large chunk of it BUT if abolished that money will not replace these schools thus less schools.
Another way of looking at it is that thr RC church helps to fund the education in this country and why should they pay for children whose parents choose not to be RC and help to fund the church - I'm being controversial now!!

Sorry Katierocket I didn't fully answer you.
What I ment bythe "choice" thing was that for some parents religious learnings and enviroment are very important in a school - if all schools became non sectarian parents would loose that choice - does that make sense?

Sonnet - my understanding is that the gvmt pays 80% of costs of faith schools currently and funds the teachers too. The aim (of the present gvmt) is for this to rise to 90%. So were faith schools to be abolished they wouldn't necessarily close.

dino - course you can chose to be religious. you can chose not to. you can chose to worship wallpaper if youso wish but you CAN chose.

but you cant chose to put your kid in a public school when the fees are more than you earn a year. becuase i didnt chose to poorer than someone else and therefore submit my children to this countries crappy education. i did not work less than any one else if fact i bet i work a damn site more most days.

Sorry does that make sense - I mean that the existence of faith schools is not dependent upon the level of funding by the church/organisation - they are heavily subsidised.

Where I live you cannt teach in the Catholic schools unless you are practising catholic. This is allowed obviously by law and they include this in their advertisements for staff.

In Scotland the Catholic Schools ARE fully funded by the state. I've also found out that there are a whole four "other" state faith schools in Scotland (three Episcopalian schools and one Jewish school). There are currently 418 publicly-funded Catholic schools in Scotland, accounting for approximately 15% of all publicly-funded schools.

The number of faith schools in the independent (private) sector includes two Muslim schools and a range of Christian schools.

According to a BBC report "It is open to any denomination to ask an education authority to establish a school to be run along particular denominational lines.

Education authorities are not obliged to provide such schools.

However, they must have regard to the general principle that children should be educated in accordance with their parents' wishes so far as that is compatible with the provision of suitable instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable public expenditure.

All schools run by education authorities in Scotland are required to be open to pupils of all denominations."

According to the Scottish Catholic Education Service,

"Catholic schools in Scotland are public schools - designated as "denominational schools" because they were, from the 1920s onwards, gradually transferred from Church ownership to State ownership. The 1918 Education Act in Scotland guaranteed the following rights to the Catholic community:

• Catholic schools were to be fully funded by the State and open to inspection by Her Majesty?s Inspectors;
• as public schools, Catholic schools were to be open to all, but provided primarily to serve the needs of the Catholic community;
• the Church was expected to approve all teachers as to their ?religious belief and character?;
• the local education authority was to appoint, with the approval of the Church, a Supervisor for Religious Education in Catholic schools"

Apparently, there is a much higher proportion of children in Catholic schools in Scotland than in England. I wonder if that has contributed to the continuing sectarianism that we suffer from?

sonnet- to be honest I'm not sure how it would work (the Steiner thing) but I can't see how anyone could attend a steiner school without believing wholeheartedly in their philosophy. I think they are far more indocrinating (is that a word?) than your average c of e school. NOw Steiner happens to be a philosophy that I like, but I'm sure it would be a far more selective place than a c of e. I went to a c of e school and didn't come out indoctrinated.

Aloha I have to say you have quite a strange idea about what goes on in c of e schools If it was pure religion being forced down your neck all the time then I suppose I wouldn't send my kids there (being an atheist and all that), but its really not like that. I think the church maybe adds and extra community, but they certainly embrace all faiths. There's no conversions going on!

You can choose to worship, but you can't 'choose' to believe. You do or you don't. I could say I believed in God, or fairies, but I would be lying. Could you honestly choose to believe in Thor?
Custardo, Sonnet etc, would you think it was Ok to refuse people employment because of their religious beliefs, as I said before? If not, then why is it OK to refuse children a place in a school on the same basis.
Why is sectarian education OK, but not sectarian employment, medical treatment et al?

State schools do not select or reject on income. Parents may choose to move nearer a perceived good school and push up house prices, but that their decision, it is not a deliberate decision to reject children in a way that would be illegal in any other organisation. I think the divisive, discriminatory official policies of (most) sectarian schools are utterly immoral. BTW it's not just London, you can't get into the Catholic primary near my friend's house in Solihul without baptism and Church attendance.

Hi Jimmychoos - Can't comment on your figures - I got mine form the end of this story here which questions the funding of faith schools and where it will stop.

education.independent.co.uk/schools/story.jsp?story=490199
The only thing I know for sure that there are more than 2000 Rc schools in the UK. I am surprised about the 80% to 90% and as I've said earlier that despte being a champion of RC schools I don't think that the state should fund religion. I accept your arguement that they will not close down based on your figures - but I would guess that those that can afford to will "opt" out and become independent ( thus becoming income related choice for parents) and those that can't afford to will become non-denominational state schools and the extra 10 to 20% will have to be found from the goverment!
BUT what will that do to these schools based on the fact that faith schools are "percieved" to be better schools? - surely it is this that we should be understanding in order to improve "education for all". It was this point that drew me into this thread at the very begining...