We haven't had a state vs private debate for a while! What did you think of the Fiona Millar programme on schools?

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Well?

Aloha - as you don't "believe" why would you even consider your children going to a "faith" school.

The gem for me in this thread is the universal assumption that faith schools are considered "better".
There is obviously a lot for the Government to learn from that, the first being to reduce the stranglehold and dictatorship of what state schools have to teach - surely the fact that all faith schools are perceived to perform better is because they have more "control" over what happens in the school - maybe a simplistic arguement?.
IMO it is the postcode lottery and parents working the system that is making the better schools better and the worst schools worst IYKWIM. Faith schools are a red herring. If state support was withdrawn (not saying I disagree with you though on that) many catholic schools would close down or become "income dependent" - I cannot see that helping the overall situation.

Sonnet - It's the hypocrisy of it that bugs me. They preach on about being good Catholics when they are not! They attend church to get the kids into a school. It's more than just a postcode issue.... this is another demonstration of the hypocrisy of religion. If I lived there I would have to have ds baptised as a Catholic and attend the church to allow him to go to his local school! I don't believe in God and if ds wants to then so be it, I don't agree with thrusting the Catholic faith )any faith, but have no direct experience of any others) down a childs throat to allow them to go to the local school that should NOT discriminate in the 1st place.

I have much the same opinion of religion as Aloha, and IME I have yet to see the benefit of it. I can assure you, SIL aside, it causes many more problems than benefits in the Central belt of Scotland. And that saddens me to see the pattern continuing generation after generation.

Why is it wrong to exclude people from work because of their religion but not from schools? What exactly is the difference?

MariaLuisa - No, she hates going to church and has told me that on a number of occasions. But she knows that she must go in order to get her ds2 into the same school as ds1.

Eh what does it take then to get them into the school???? If it isn't baptism and church attendance? That has really confused me!

Aaaargh Sonnet - I DON'T want my ds to go to a sectarian school!!!! This is a moral issue about discrimination. I don't think sectarian schools should exist, and I certainly don't think they should be funded from the public purse. I DON'T want to work at Sainsbury's, but if it refused to employ Jews or Catholics I would be bloody picketing at the door. It's not right to discriminate against adults because of creed so why is it OK to do so against children.

BTW I don't think private schools should have charitable status, no argument from me on that point.

Also Custardo, could you 'choose' to believe in River Spirits, or Thor, or fairies? Or David Icke's lizard-men?

The state does contribute to other ideological schools though. For example the Greenwich Steiner school was/is in the process of becoming part state funded. You have to buy into the whole ethos to send your kid there. I still cannot see why a faith school is a problem if it isn't selecting on religion (which in many cases they aren't). Surely then they are just doing everyone a favour by contributing to the cost of running a school which is open to all members of the community.

Marialuisa - They live in the Bootle area. Maybe there are other things she has to do that I haven't been told about. But I was quite horrified when DH told me just how much of the daily curriculum is taken up with teaching the Catholic faith.

Its a very good point about discriminating in the work place compared to at school. Seems odd that a child should be taught this segregation from an early age then go into an adult world where it is seen as terribly wrong to do so.

Aloha - personally I don't agree either that they should be state funded. Currently 2,094 catholic shools currently receive some level of funding - what the remaining ones do I don't know. BUT how will abolishing faith schools help the current situation? - surely removing funding will mean many faith schools will close, or if in an affluant area will become independent. The state will be unable to take over the funding of all faith schools so it will mean less schools not more. YES Aloha I understand that discrimination is your argument. The bigger picture needs to be loked at - any views on the fact that the perceived sucess of faith schools is down to less "interferance" from the government?

Very interesting Jimjams that the Greenwich Steiner school is becoming part-funded. So if you don't believe wholeheartedly in the principle you will not be accepted - isn't that discriminatory .
Joking apart the Steiner principle appeals to me - if they were any near here I would definatly have looked into it

Surely the performance of faith shools is down to selective intake? Pure and simple IMO.

jimmychoos, you are quite simply wrong when it comes to rc schools. the only selection is by faith, not ability, not class - that's it pure and simple.

Bk - hasn't this thread shown that the pupils who go to faith schools are quite often the offspring of parents who are feigning religious beliefs for the sake of their child's education ie to get them into the best school in their area? The principle is as you describe but the practice is not. Parents play the faith school system as much as the state ed system.

Pragmatically, I think the state should take them over and they should become open to all and not dish out religious indoctrination. The churches should only be able to run the school, teach their religion and select pupils IF they can cough up enough to fully-fund the schools - that means everything - repairs, teachers - the whole kit and caboodle.
However, ideally, I'd like religious schools to be abolished full stop, for the same reason as I oppose discriminate on religious grounds in the workplace, in hospitals or in any other aspect of life.
We cannot IMO, morally subject children to the kind of religious discrimination that is illegal when applied to adults.

And again I would say that the parents attitude is the crucial factor for success in education. So the parents who are prepared to go that extra mile - including attending church every sunday when they simply do not believe (and I know lots of people who do this) - are likely to be the very encouraging of their child's success and very supportive of the school. Result - a school that performs well.

yes, jimjams, but you don't need money to play the system - turning up to church is free, as are christenings. and no-one has yet suggested that the ability to play the system is confined to one particular race or class, and it doesn't require a huge amount of articulacy or education either. i'm with you i think the post code lottery is more unjust.

sorry, i meant jimmychoos, and agree with jimjams on the postcode lottery thing.

jimmychoos, i agree with you that those who are prepared to make the commitment to a faith - real or feigned - are more likely to be supportive parents. i don't think you can count "supportive" parents as some kind of selection criteria, can you? being supportive doesn't necessarily, e.g. cost you money.

aargh, mustn't post in a hurry, i meant if they are committed to getting their kids into a particular school and prepared to make whatever commitment is necessary to go there, they are likely to be supportive to the school when the kids are there. i didn't mean only religious or fake religious parents are supportive.

I agree with you in everything you've said BK - put far better than me.
Aloha - with the abolition of all faith schools ( RC, CofE, Jewish, muslim) the determining factor to which school our children would attend would be postcode which translates to money. That is far worse IMO. In addition the "choice" a parent may have in how there child is educated and what is and what isn't important is reduced.

Aloha, how does your argument stand up for "alternative" schools ie Steiner Schools?

There is a jewish school near us which has a fantastic reputation - is it just me, but I have never given a thought to the fact that my child cannot go there because we are not jewish. It would never occur to me that they were being discriminated against - and why? because religion is a choice that we have control over, not an uncontrollable force such as race, disability, wealth etc