Page 11 | We haven't had a state vs private debate for a while! What did you think of the Fiona Millar programme on schools?

hmb · 08/03/2004 16:04

Just come back in from work, and this is such in interesting debate!

Well, I must admit that the poeple that I met when I went to Oxford were all very bright ( with on exception). I went there from a crap Comp, and had no experience in unoversity education in my family before my generation (parents both had to leave school at 14). It was quite a reality check for me to realise that one of my friends (who had gone to Eton) was there , not because he came from a wealthy background but because he was a. exceptionally bright and
b. had worked his arse off.
Most of the people that I met were at least as bright as I am, and most of them were brighter. No sure why our experiences were so different, different year, different intacke I suppose.

To look at the question of how to improve schools, well a big injection of cash would be good. That way my kids could have a copy of text books, we could run sixth form practicals (which we can't because we don't have the budget). And the cash needs to be spent by the departments on things that they need. The school I am working in doesn't have enough money for text books, but can spend £300,000 on a new music block. It will look great, but the kids still will be without books. The reason for this crazyness....different budgets.

The schools must be able to insist on basic standars of dicipline, which must be fully supported by the family of the pupils. That way the school teachers can concentrate on teaching the kids instead of crowd control. Do that and you would get a massive increase in attainment in subjects. There are large numbers of children who come into lessons unwilling to work or to abide by the rules of the school. Persistant offenders should be removed to a behavioural unit where they can be taught in smaller groups and sort out their problems. At the moment classes full of good kids get no-where because of the behaviour of a bad miniority. Until this happens nothing will improve.

And if I sound Jaded it is because I am...one of my little charmers called me a Bitch today! She will be back in my lesson on Wednesday.....does so much for the level of behaviour in my lessons.

katierocket · 08/03/2004 16:05

CD - different schools have different policies but that was my point earlier - 3 of my friends are having their children christened catholic so they can attend our local RC school even though they are non practising catholics themselves (albeit christened like yourself).

Hulababy · 08/03/2004 16:10

Oh hmb Sorry to hear you had a bad day today. Was the child punished at all? Did you get any support? I suspect not enough punishment if she will back with you on Wednesday. Wonder what the difference would have been if you had said that to her, eh?

dinosaur · 08/03/2004 16:10

It does worry me a bit that the teachers on here, whilst doing great work in the state sector obviously, are not choosing state sector schools for their own kids (Not a criticism, chaps, just makes me worried.)

marialuisa · 08/03/2004 16:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

bossykate · 08/03/2004 16:16

aloha, rc schools do not show significantly better stats on things like free school meals, i.e. there are no indicators that indicate selection on anything other than a religious basis. i'm confident on this because of the figures you yourself provided when this was discussed last time!

Hulababy · 08/03/2004 16:21

dinosaur - I think it is much more wide spread than people may realise too. At my current school (and around the area) I know many teachers there with their children at either very good state schools or private schools. Incidently, at my last very good state school that wasn't the case - teachers were desperate to get their children in but were struggling to live in the catchment areas to do so.

Maybe too many state school teachers are becoming so disillusioned with their own jobs?

I think it is certainly one way to judge how good a school is percieved as being. Try asking the teachers there if they would send their child to that school? Not sure whether morally that could answer that truthfully though but would be very telling.

hmb · 08/03/2004 16:21

Part of the reason that I have chosen to sent my kids to a local private school is that they can cater for their very different needs. I know that this would not be the case in the local primary school. If I could have sent them to a state school I would have. Full stop, end of story. I don't come from a posh background and neither does dh (single parent family also went to Oxford, where we met)

I am happy to work in the state sector, love my job and want to help the kids and make a difference. Bottom line is, I try my damndest with the kids I teach, but I wouldn't let my kids go to my school if I could do anything to avoid it. I work long hours to improve it, but I wouln't sent my kids there.

Re the Girl, she was withdrawn by the Duty HOY, who was very nice and supportive. She denies that she said it (natch!), but is not telling the truth. She will probably get an after school detention. Telling a teacher to F off gets 3 days suspension. To be honest the school is very supportive of the staff, but in the end our hands are tied. Ho hum, and as you said what would have happened if it had been the other way around!

aloha · 08/03/2004 17:01

BK, as I recall, they do have a significantly different profile in terms of no of kids claiming free school meals etc.
But even if they didn't I still think it is morally and ethically wrong that a school is funding overwhelmingly by the state but is still permitted to be discriminatory and divisive and select pupils on the basis of their parents' beliefs. It is pure discrimination!

aloha · 08/03/2004 17:02

Also, how easy is it to pick brighter, more committed children while claiming to choose merely on a faith basis? Very.

bossykate · 08/03/2004 17:07

aloha, the profiles for other faiths are different, but rc showed a 1.5% difference at primary school level and no difference at secondary level. and your second point is merely an opinion.

bossykate · 08/03/2004 17:09

by "difference" i mean 1.5% fewer kids claimed free school meals at rc primaries than the norm. you are correct to say that the discrepancies for other faiths are more marked according to the figures you provided - but i can't comment on those from personal experience, whereas i can on the catholic perspective.

bossykate · 08/03/2004 17:13

for the nth time, i am sympathetic to the objections around faith schools when it comes to funding. just not to the argument that rc schools have a wealthy, white intake - they don't necessarily (some will of course, depends on the area...)

dinosaur · 08/03/2004 17:15

Let's all be nice to each other folks - we're becoming the subject of adverse comment on mumsonline!

Hulababy · 08/03/2004 17:19

Not noticed any adverse comments about anyone one here dinosaur. I did put on there that I was getting distracted from my workby this thread, and that these 'debates' always just end up getting me stressed and that DH ends up thinking I am mad for bothering with them. In fact I don't think there is anything on MO that hasn't been said either in this thread or similar ones on the past.

dinosaur · 08/03/2004 17:21

Not personal comments about individual posters, no.

hmb · 08/03/2004 17:21

All seems quite ladylike to me. But then I've just been called a Bitch but a rather unpleasent 16 year old, so my standards may be low when it comes to judging debating points

dinosaur · 08/03/2004 17:25

I was really nervous about entering the debate, as I have lurked on other mumsnet debates about education that did get rather heated, but I have enjoyed this, have learned a lot from it and thought that everyone who posted on it was pretty fair and open.

Hulababy · 08/03/2004 17:27

Honest, anyone is free to read what I said. Pretty much what I put here I think (just checking). And nothing I wouldn't be saying in the bar tonight - about it getting me frustrated/stressed, etc.

bossykate · 08/03/2004 17:28

dino, i don't think this thread is becoming particularly heated - it's positively mild compared to previous threads on this subject! i'm not interested what mumsonline thinks.

Hulababy · 08/03/2004 17:30

I agree - on the whole the debate was pleasant and interesting. Not many accusations, but some do exist on here (as always happens). Education threads have indeed got heated at times on MN, that's probably why I tend to get nervous about first posting on them to give my reasons/ justifications/ thoughts/ etc. And probably also why I get frustrated at times too.

dinosaur · 08/03/2004 17:35

Please don't stress HB. I get the impression that supporters of private, or at least selective, schools are actually in a slight majority (although I haven't done a detailed analysis!).

princesspeahead · 08/03/2004 17:35

whole subject is frustrating simply because it is such a difficult and complex mess really. bit like any discussion of how to sort out the nhs sadly. except most of us will have to battle with education choices for the next 20 years, whereas we all do our utmost not to have to use the nhs!

dinosaur · 08/03/2004 17:37

ooh, pph, I was just thinking about starting a debate about NHS v. private healthcare...

Hulababy · 08/03/2004 17:38

Now NHS PPH I can do . They have been fab with my heart condition and trying to sort it out, and DD's birth/induction/cs was fab. Have no problem with using NHS at all Mind you, think we get private health care after DH's next promotion, no doubt it won't cover exisiting conditions though.