Grammar Schools : the debate is about what happens NOW

[TalkinPeace]

In the 20 years after WW2, when the baby boomers were kids, grammar schools did amazing things for social mobility.

But then, self preservation kicked back in
and since 1970, selective state schools have become progressively less inclusive
to the extent today where the (grammar school educated head of OFSTED) says
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25386784

the death knell has been rung
as it has for DB pensions (another great Baby Boomer nest lining idea)

so lets bite the bullet and put equal resources into all schools and reduce the carbon footprint of the grammar school madness.

Snowy. Yes, Grammar schools are full of the children of pushy parents. Whether they coached or naturally gifted they are all bright, as they beat their exam taking cohort in open competition.

But Wilshaw likes pushy parents he says they push up standards.

This is obviously why he wants the kids of pushy grammar school parents in comps,to do a job Ofsted should be doing.That stinks quite frankly.

I'm getting tired of this gov and their anti hard working middle class stance.They continuously protect the rich and their private schools and like to focus on a tiny minority in order to keep the elephant in the room out of view.Private schools and the Outstanding comps only those with pots of money can get into screw society in a far bigger way.But hey lets not focus on them.

Oh and re the lack of fsm kids and the abundance of kids who have kids with sharp elbows just maybe the former aren't even having a go at getting their kids in and the latter are.

""Telling children they're failures at 10" err why exactly?Over dramatic much."

Because you don't go to a different school, or wear a different uniform if you get a 4, not a 5 in your SATs. You don't have neighbours and friends asking you what you got in your SATs, and doing a head tilt when you tell them. You don't get separated from your friends because you got a 4 in your SATs. Nobody decides that you won't play hockey, or do 3 sciences or only do one MFL because you got a 4 in your SATs. Nobody bullies you because you got a 4 in your SATs. Nobody tells you that you can't walk on the pavement-if you get a 4 in your SATs (and before you ask, yes this did happen to my friend's daughter- her ex primary school friends pushed her off the pavement, and told her it was for X school only- chavs walk in the road)

Ooooo well if it happened to your fiends daughter.

What utter tosh.

retropear
Outstanding comps only those with pots of money can get into screw society in a far bigger way
wow, chip on your shoulder much :
www3.hants.gov.uk/schooldetails?dfes=5416#catchment
there is the map - are all the people in that area loaded?

"Ooooo well if it happened to your fiends daughter.

What utter tosh."

Just wondering- do you live in a wholly selective area?

I suggest you take it up with Wilshaw,Sutton and the others who have highlighted how big a problem it is.

No but then very few of us do so we don't really need the anti grammar hysteria do we.

retropear
but nor do we need you saying that outstanding comps are only for the rich
another catchment map - check the houses on Rightmove
www3.hants.gov.uk/schooldetails?dfes=4127#catchment

"No but then very few of us do so we don't really need the anti grammar hysteria do we."

So when you tell me I am talking "tosh" you actually have no fucking idea what you're talking about, do you?

Sorry but your continual anti grammar threads which involve a teeny tiny fraction of kids are getting repetitious.

You continuously choose to ignore(or some reason) the far bigger problem of comp catchment and private schools.

It just goes round and round in circles.

There are fab grammar systems poles apart from Kent,utter shite comps and hoards of kids excluded from a decent comp due to lack of money.

But hey continue with your war against grammars(basing all your views on one county),it's really worthwhile.

retropear
so what would you do?
Abolish private schools and randomly allocate state school children to schools regardless of where they live?

And I'm as much against all faith schools as I am those that select by a random test.
There should be no place for segregated education in taxpayer funded schools.
And there are segregated schools in every part of the country.

I base my links on one county because I live in it, know the website and know that the data transparency is far greater than many other counties.

How about you post links about Comp schools that are only outstanding because the people at them are rich?

Er, retropear- you did notice that this thread is about grammar schools, didn't you?

And the fact that there are some super comps in Hampshire is of absolutely no help to my sister whose son is at an utterly shite comp in the north east. In and out of special measures and she doesn't have the money or the religion to move him to a better school. She can't even afford to supplement the woeful fucking teaching with tutors.

The education system in this country needs fixing. Yes, there are some fantastic comps out there but it's a postcode lottery. Yet another thread about bloody grammar schools which affect a very small proportion of kids is really really missing the point.

I want my kids to go to school with kids of pushy parents or parents who think education is important.
Why wouldn't anyone?

I didn't know Pisa tests were so flawed. Is there another measure?

Cbi reports on school leavers skills. Sorry cant link on this

marni23
But you just put your finger on why this is a national issue
she doesn't have the money or the religion to move him to a better school
Why should the way your parents kneel affect your right to an education?
As Catholic schools and some other church ones are effectively grammars because they edge out all those without organised, motivated, intelligent parents.
Just as unfair.

Talkin what about my evidence? I live in Smalltownsville I'm friendly I walk my dogs round Smalltownsville I meet other people walking their dogs, I here the same stories about our local comp, I work with children talk to their parents I hear the same disgruntled stories about their local comp, most people I work with are women we talk about our children in our breaks same disgruntled stories about their local comp. The stories are all different, their children are bright/slow/learning difficulties/ill/reluctant scholars/naughty in Smalltownsville they're MC at work the parents are frequently aspriational WC, work colleagues are a mixture of both. I not talking about 1 school maybe not 100 but a large number spread through 4 counties. The general consensus is that state ed works for reasonably hard working compliant, average to above average intelligent children. Nearly all say if they could manage it they'd send their DC's to an independent school (not that they are necessarily any better) they are thoroughly disillusioned with the education and genuinely believe there children are being poorly served.
I don't know the answer but until state ed changes parents will continue to scrape around to pay fees and a substantial minority will firmly believe that the pasture in greener somewhere else.
As a public sector worker (not education) my gut feeling in my area is that the whole system has become to large and unwieldy some nameless office waller responses to the current crisis, popular trend government policy to win votes he who has never actually done my job generates more regulations and paper work, we are no longer allowed to use any discretion or common sense we are try on the

marni23 you are right that's grammar schools affect a small proportion of pupils and is irrelevant in the North East. That's why it makes me so angry that past-it (southern) Conservative MPs and journos keep droning on about the good old days of grammars. They couldn't give a toss about the North East - no votes there, no influence in the media so it's invisible to them.

And what is Gove doing for the NE? More academies and an 'education chancellor'. Bailing out private schools with state cash. But no cash for a regional school improvement scheme like the City Challenge.

Sorry posted to early we are told to see our clients as individuals but at the same time have a one size fits all approach inflicted on us from above. My impression of education is that it's the same. And let's not forget there is no money left. I have never seen it this bad and apparently are money is ring fenced and index linked but I am becoming genuinely frightened about what Im seeing. It must be the same for education. I was talking to a teacher the other day she's c's good enthusiastic teacher she's giving up and opening a tea shop, one if my colleagues is leaving and starting a jewellery business she completely dedicated to those we work with. The lady I work my dogs with an ex teacher given up disillusioned. Something will have to change.

its incredible to me that anyone would trust labour/lib dems on education. Their politicians will do ANYTHING to avoid sending their kids to the local comp. look at dianne abbot, harriet harman, ruth whatsername, nick cleggeven Tristram hunt new minister for ed will probably go private. Hilarious.

ghostlyeuphemism your comments have.been.spot.on as far as I am concerned.

talkinpeace We can't trust the PISA tests? No survey research is ever perfect. But if we can't trust the OECD to be an honest broker, it seems we won't be able to have any facts in this conversation, just passionate opinions! I am impressed by vehemence and passion, but not really persuaded.

Thisisaghostly there's not much evidence about where MPs send their children apart from shit-stirring when it suits the tabloids - otherwise they probably want to keep their children out of the papers.

The most recent report I could find about proportion of MPs themselves privately educated showed:

54% of Conservatives MPs
40% of Liberal Democrats
15% of Labour MPs

So no party truly representative of society but LibDems much more like Conservatives and Labour closer to the 7% average.

missinglala
The statistical protocols of the PISA tests are very iffy : pupils in different countries andswered different sets of questions.
Pupils within and between countries andwered different numbers of questions.
Some pupils only did one of the topics
and then China was allowed to only have the Shanghai and Hong Kong results included rather than the whole country (because thn it would have come out below the USA)
India refused to take part.
Before data was submitted, questionnaires about parents were used to "weight" the results.
seriously - do not allow PISA to affect UK policy.

Happygardening
You - and your friends and colleagues - are utterly correct that there is far too much centralised meddling by naice little civil servants and political researchers
the current government, despite all the hoo hah about Localism
is one of the most centralising yet
Academy policy is set from Whitehall based on the view from there
LEAs have their faults, but at least they were run from the same county.
Schools decide not to become academies, and Ofsted are told to downgrade them and force them.

Sadly a bucket load of decentralism is needed - but the current bunch of politicians are not going to do it.

Talkinpeace

Its not segregation its selection. its about fitting the right child to the right school based on their talents and ambitions. The problem isn't grammars; its the secondary moderns.

Diversify, specialise provision for secondary education just like tertiary education already does. Less comprehensives; more specialists. The German system of 5-6 secondary school types covering a range of academic, technical and vocational specialisms is a model that has many attractions.