Grammar Schools : the debate is about what happens NOW

[TalkinPeace]

In the 20 years after WW2, when the baby boomers were kids, grammar schools did amazing things for social mobility.

But then, self preservation kicked back in
and since 1970, selective state schools have become progressively less inclusive
to the extent today where the (grammar school educated head of OFSTED) says
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25386784

the death knell has been rung
as it has for DB pensions (another great Baby Boomer nest lining idea)

so lets bite the bullet and put equal resources into all schools and reduce the carbon footprint of the grammar school madness.

Summerends- the "sharing a canteen" line was, I suspect, a reference to another well known poster who is admirably open about her desire for her children never to "rub shoulders in the lunch queue" with any child not at at least NC level 5.

My DS sat his 11+ in September and, thankfully he has achieved above the threshold. Thank god for grammar schools. We could not afford private schools and thank god we are not having to choose from the local 3 comprehensives. All are under special measures.

Talkin dont take this the wrong way but are you sure this is what actually happens at your school? My DS1 was at a ofstead judged outstanding high achieving comp.the top school in the county, judged as one of the top comps in the country, beating results wise many of the poorer performing grammars probably very similar to yours. They made similar claims and I've even met the children who are/were there who've done all the things you've listed above and shared the canteen. But the reality for the vast majority of children (all MC) was IMV a 2nd rate education. This was not just my experience but the experience of an alarming number of others who I met and talked too. I have a friend with a DD at the second best performing school in the county a very similar profile to my my DS1's same story. I met two ladies walking my dogs they were both teachers at two other very good comps again very similar profile guess what same story. Up until recently I worked with children from comps right across the county again I frequently heard the same story. I know work in another county with a history of outstanding state education I here the same story here as well. Heads of thee top performing schools are spin doctors they talk a good talk, they know what to say to make parents believe all in the garden is rosy but over the years I have become increasingly sceptical that it is.
Finally the person above who suggested more money should be put into education. Are you having a laugh? I've spent 30 years in the public sector, there is no money left I have never seen it as bad as this and its only going to get worse. You have been warned!

Happygardening- second rate compared to Winchester, possibly! . But the two are just not comparable. I don 't even know how to calculate how much it would cost to give. Winchester education to every child in the country.

Well, well done you, deliverance.
Devil take the hindmost, eh?

Curlew was that your attitude when your DD passed the 11+? If not, then why not give poor Deliverance the benefit of the doubt that you demand others give you?

Curlew. I am very proud that my DS has earned a gs place. Yes. The alternative would have been to pay for an expensive indie place that we cannot afford.

Happygardening
I've no idea what the Head says about the children I was thinking of when I posted at 16:19 and I do not intend to post their names here, but they are definitely real and many are not MC (the sport high achievers in particular)

Yeah, everything is "2nd rate" compared to Winchester College, but as their fees alone are more than half the country earns I do not really care about the scruffy boys in their little bubble.
I care about making sure that girls and the rest of the world get a chance in life.

And maybe lots of MC parents send their kids to the schools here BECAUSE they are as good as Grammars and most fee paying schools.
They are comprehensive after all.

Well, well done you, deliverance.
Devil take the hindmost, eh?

Yes Curlew, because deliverance turning down a GS place and sending her DS to a comprehensive school in special measures will really sort out the educational problems in the country

Deliverance, I apologise- that was uncalled for.

But it does make me so very angry when people who support selective education say how wonderful it is that their children don't have to go to the schools that everyone else has to. As I said, the flip side of supporting grammar schools is that you also have to support secondary moderns. And telling children that they are failures at the age of 10.

That is not the flipside of grammar schools existing, that is the flip side of the Kent system. Which most people dislike, or understand why those caught in it dislike it.

Superselectives do not create secondary moderns.

Thanks curlew, that puts Talkin's remark into a more apt context.

Talkin you don't have to be defensively sarcastic. I might have misunderstood the context of your remark but I am sure you don't think it is scary that not all bright children are rich (and vice versa) .

Just to add Talkin, you are absolutely right about why so many people choose to send their children to your comprehensives and sixth form college, it is not because they are comprehensives but because they are excellent schools. If they were poor you would n't be quite so sanguine in upholding the comprehensive system in isolation as the solution to all the problems of the British education system.

"Superselectives do not create secondary moderns."

Absolutely. I understand why people support the idea of superselectives- I don't, as it happens, but for very different reasons to my objection to wider selection. But it's not just Kent- there are other lEAs that have a a Kent-type system. And I do think that when people think "grammar" school, they think of the aren't model. Because it is the one most like the "old" grammar schools of people's childhoods.

But what is it people want when they want or chose a grammar education? I think they want traditional subjects, strong discipline and challenging lessons. They feel that the alternative schools aren't providing this.

While we are sitting so poorly compared to the rest of the world educationally, I think they are right. Something is wrong with education in this country - and I don't think grammar schools are to blame.

It's only Kent, Bucks and parts of Lincs which still have a full GS/Sec Mod system as far as I am aware. I wasn't aware that these counties shone as far as academic achievement was concerned.

But nowhere in the state sector is shining particularly and the gap between state and private is huge.

How would getting rid of grammar schools redress that?

Ok curlew and talkin you think I'm not comparing like with like in fact in comparison with Win Col my DS1 old comp looked 4 th rate. But what about all those other disgruntled parents who can't make the same comparison, what about the disgruntled teachers telling stories of fixing exams results, not being able to give the right help to the slow child, the extra gifted child, the disinterested child, what about the teacher who told me that in her long experience gifted and talented programes don't actually cater for those who really are gifted, what about teachers who refuse to treat a child with dyslexia slightly differently even though their own ed. psych says they should, what about the child with a serious chronic illness who the school refuses to make allowences for even though medical staff have requested it? All of these children and parents and even teachers probably have never even heard of Win Coll let alone know enough to compare it with their local "outstanding" comp. They just think they're DC is getting a shitty education because that is their experience of the school.

Thisisaghostlyeuphemism
While we are sitting so poorly compared to the rest of the world educationally
evidence please - and do not quote the PISA tests, they are flawed.
nowhere in the state sector is shining particularly and the gap between state and private is huge
that's a pretty sweeping statement
unless you see even more schools than DH (over 100 a year in his case) what is your evidence?

Happygardening
so you clearly think comps are not the answer.
What is?

"Telling children they're failures at 10" err why exactly?Over dramatic much.

Children sit Sats at 10, is the presumption that parents tell their dc they're failures if they didn't get level 5 or 6 then?

I also fail to see how 15% of the kids who, according to mumsnet are middle class/heavily tutored and not partic bright manage to bring down the education for the other 85%.

Or perhaps they're just being scapegoated.

There is no disputing that grammar schools get good results and they are working well for the children that attend them, so why are they seen as the problem? The problem with selective education lies with other schools, which if improved, would solve the problem.

I agree. If you cut out the grammars in that situation, it won't magically improve the other schools. I'm in favour of grammars because although the system wouldn't be perfect, at least the divide won't simply be down to money, and some of the brightest from low-income families will benefit from the grammar education. It's a way to dilute the huge over-representation of the privately educated in influential positions.

No worries curlew. Though there is an element in truth about your posting to me. I love comprehensives. I just do not love the ones near me. And yes I am delighted that my ds will have the privilege of a state funded gilt-edged education, instead of the local bog standard comprehensives.

Also there are very hard working, bright children who may still fail to get into grammar. They are penalised by being made to feel second best.

There will always be a minority who are on the borderline but does that make the whole system invalid?

What about the larger number of bright children who are being penalised by not being given the opportunities to be stretched to their full potential, as they can't afford to access private education?

snowed
There are comps that get better results than Grammars
What other hoops do you want the comps to jump through?

some of the brightest from low-income families will benefit from the grammar education
but they don't - that is Wilshaw's exact point.
Grammar schools are full of the children of pushy parents, not necessarily the brightest children.