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Education

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For anyone who still thinks that access to selective state education is a level playing field.....

903 replies

curlew · 29/11/2013 12:18

I have just read the latest OfSTED for my dd's grammar school.

There are no children in Year 7 who are eligible for FSM. None. Not one.

OP posts:
WooWooOwl · 04/12/2013 21:49

But the 25:75 system? Nope. Can't think of one.

Neither can I.

FastLoris · 04/12/2013 21:51

Curlew - Many (including myself) have taken great pains to explain in this thread exactly why they choose grammar schools, and to clarify the distinction between their actual objections to the comps in their area and your ideas about the "great unwashed".

Given that you respond to every such clarification by completely ignoring it and just repeating the same accusations, I can't see a good reason why I should waste my time repeating information you're determined to block from your consciousness.

You could try reading the thread.

curlew · 04/12/2013 21:55

FastLoris, I have read the thread. Several times. And I can't find a single legitimate reason for the 25:75 grammar/secondary modern split. They fact that you are talking about grammars and comprehensives indicates that you are a little confused about what's going on......

OP posts:
Norudeshitrequired · 04/12/2013 22:00

and mixing kids who have crap parents in amongst kids with great parents (as comps do but selective schools do not) is the best remedy

Perhaps it is a good remedy and perhaps it isn't. Being among children who have great involved parents or wealthy parents can highlight difference to those children who have crap parents or are in dire poverty and make them feel more devalued.
Girl from the council estate whose parents have never worked and never been bothered about education or providing extra curricular activities will only feel that she cannot compete with the girl from millionaires row whose parents have always taken a great interest in their child's education and have provided horse riding and piano lessons and a few cultural outings every year.
Th fact is that a fully universal education system will not eradicate the current divide between the bothered and the not bothered parents or the rich and the poor. There are too many interrelated factors that cannot be ironed out by simply bundling all children together. You cannot easily create a level playing field.

MoreThanChristmasCrackers · 04/12/2013 22:01

I think its more than disadvantaged dc coming from low income families tbh.
our family household has always been low and we have always managed to support our childrens education. We don't live in a grammar area and my dc weren't /aren't overly bright. I think one of them would have passed an 11+ exam. However, we would have made sure he had the opportunity if it was the right thing for our dc irrespective of income.
Fair enough, fsm and low income do give an indication that some dc will be disadvantaged, but its more than the income.
My dd is 9 and H.ed now, I manage to fund private music lessons, Italian tutor, various groups and activities, work books and other resources because they are our priorities.

CaroBeaner · 04/12/2013 22:03

In he olden dayes everyone took the 11+. Why on earth in full grammar areas is it opt in? If it was just an extra test after SATS maybe a representative proportion of all children would get in,

Wouldn't help with the failure label that Curlew talks of, or in creating routes for children who blossom late etc.

Once in a grammar, do they kick you out if you produce mediocre results by Yr 9?

BluePeterAdventCrown · 04/12/2013 22:10

But no - in olden days the school still put you forward for it. Or so I have been told.

LaQueenAnd3KingsOfOrientAre · 04/12/2013 22:11

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lottysmum · 04/12/2013 22:13

It looks like there are moves to change things judging by this press article ...

Children from poor families are being allowed to jump the queue for sought-after places at top-performing grammar schools for the first time.
Until now, priority for oversubscribed places has been given to children who have passed the 11-plus exam and live closest to the school.
But a rule change introduced by Education Secretary Michael Gove now means schools can offer poor children places ahead of better-off youngsters who live nearer – with heads picking up hundreds of pounds in extra funding.
At least four grammars, where up to six pupils compete for every place, are among the first wave of state schools making the changes, risking a backlash among parents who fear they could lose out.
The move follows criticism that better-off families are boosting their chances of getting into grammars by first sending children to independent schools, where class sizes are considerably smaller, and then moving them back into the state system once they have passed the 11-plus. Heads say this undermines the original aim of grammars in promoting social mobility.
In Buckinghamshire, Aylesbury Grammar, Aylesbury High School and Sir Henry Floyd Grammar are giving priority to children granted free school meals because their families are on benefits or earn less than £16,190.
As these children are eligible for the ‘pupil premium’ – extra Government funding allocated to recipients of free school meals – the schools will benefit by £900 per pupil this year.
Another grammar, Lawrence Sheriff at Rugby, Warwickshire, is also introducing new criteria that will allow it to favour children on pupil premiums over others who live closer.

Campaigners say parents who do not qualify for free school meals but are on low incomes would be infuriated by the changes. Margaret Morrissey, of pressure group Parents Outloud, said: ‘This is blatantly unfair. A child should be admitted to a selective school on merit, and it should have nothing to do with the family’s financial position. This is a form of social engineering.
‘Everything seems to go against parents who provide for their children and support their education. Mr Gove seems to be doing everything in his power to make life more difficult for them.’
Oversubscribed: Grammar schools have previously had to chose on the basis of how close pupils live
Oversubscribed: Grammar schools have previously had to chose on the basis of how close pupils live
Chris McGovern, of Real Education, said: ‘Free school meals are a very poor indicator of social background.’
However, Stephen Lehec, head of the 1,300-strong Aylesbury Grammar, founded in 1598, said: ‘These are people who need a leg-up. If they pass the 11-plus and need free school meals, they are often doing really well despite their circumstances.’
Peter Kent, head of Lawrence Sheriff, said just one parent had so far objected to the change, but the school hoped to regain the ‘socially diverse mix’ it had 15 or 20 years ago.
About 1.9?million children are eligible for the pupil premium, which is given to those who have been registered for free school meals at any point in the previous six years.
The Department for Education said: ‘The pupil premium priority was introduced to give children from low-income families a better chance of accessing good schools which they may not otherwise have considered.
‘All pupils must pass entrance tests before being considered for a place at a selective school.’

BluePeterAdventCrown · 04/12/2013 22:13

That doesn't translate that every child eligible for FSM has a chaotic life though which is how you phrased it before.

LaQueenAnd3KingsOfOrientAre · 04/12/2013 22:16

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BluePeterAdventCrown · 04/12/2013 22:19

My friend from school with her lone parent and FSM is now a top dog in NY. She probably did have a slightly chaotic life, but it never stopped her.

Talkinpeace · 04/12/2013 22:20

In the olden dayes everyone took the 11+
Um no.
For the very short period between the end of WW1 and when most grammar schools were abolished
those halcyon days were a short term anomaly of the baby boomers feathering their own nests
that rode on the back of an utter global upheaval

what happened in the 50's and 60's was an anomaly : a bit like generous final salary pensions

lets move on from it shall we ?

LaQueenAnd3KingsOfOrientAre · 04/12/2013 22:22

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FastLoris · 04/12/2013 22:23

caro -

Once in a grammar, do they kick you out if you produce mediocre results by Yr 9?

Not in Y9 AFAIK, but they certainly kick you out after GCSE and don't let you do A Levels, if your GCSE results are below a certain level. Given that some children from secondary moderns then transfer to Grammar school A Level depts, that's one place that the currents do cross again. (Although I would certainly support it happening earlier).

FastLoris · 04/12/2013 22:28

Been googling to try and find statistics on how many children on FSM sit the Kent test or other 11+. No luck.

Philoslothy · 04/12/2013 22:31

Gosh laqueen did you mean to be so rude.

It is often a sign that someone is realizing that they are talking ill informed bollocks when they are rude or drag up bizarre things from other threads.

If I remember correctly I was making the point on the other thread that knowing random stuff was not necessarily a sign of intelligence.

I don't think I did complain about feeling inferior on MN, I am often amused at the attempts of others to make themselves feel superior or to hang out to dry their " middle class" washing for everyone to see. Your internet persona is one of my favourite attempts to do that, I often read your posts with a wry smile at the humour of it all.

It would seem that we agree that it is not just being on FSM that means it is a miracle that some children make it to school, rather a chaotic life which may or may not be caused by poverty.

BluePeterAdventCrown · 04/12/2013 22:44

LaQueen - you mean a level of chaos that YOU can't comprehend, surely? There are plenty of posts of MN discussing all sorts of off the wall scenarios that I can't imagine. How people got themselves in that situation and all. I can't possibly imagine because I wasn't there and never lived their life. Doesn't make it less valid.

LaQueenAnd3KingsOfOrientAre · 04/12/2013 22:50

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LaQueenAnd3KingsOfOrientAre · 04/12/2013 22:51

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LaQueenAnd3KingsOfOrientAre · 04/12/2013 22:52

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BluePeterAdventCrown · 04/12/2013 22:52

In mho the bright ones, are the bright ones. The results and selective schools admissions are skewed by those with less bright children who tutor to win the game. I am glad I no longer live in a grammar school area.

LaQueenAnd3KingsOfOrientAre · 04/12/2013 22:55

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LaQueenAnd3KingsOfOrientAre · 04/12/2013 22:58

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CaroBeaner · 04/12/2013 23:01

Talkin' in my school everyone took the 11+. In school, during the school day. Then those that passed sent to grammar and those that didn't didn't. It wasn't even a distinction I was especially aware of til afterwards.

What does that have to do with baby boomers etc?

My point is, why don't Kent just give everyone the chance to take it , as routine ? Having to opt in is the first stage if selection and one that may count against mSnh children who would have got in.

In an ideal world I would not support a grammar system. But where it exists, just let everyone try for it.