Sick of the fuss.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Having a bit of a rant here but just feel like it.

I can't understand why there is such a fuss over what school people use for their dc.
Until recently people just took their lot as the way it was, but now we all want more and not only this but what we can't have.
If there are only a few thousand that can afford certain schools so be it.
If your dc can't go to grammar so what?
If your state school is rubbish it will get better as it will be in special measure.
If your dc aren't bright so what? If the school you would like is full so what?
There have always been situations in education that weren't perfect, or others could have and you couldn't.
Why does it matter?
Thank you.

morethanpotatoprints I read your post out to my eldest DD who went through her secondary school being in special measures not once but twice.

This why she says it matters:

• when you are in school the exams you take will affect the next stage in your life. There are second chances but these will take far more work and may well be a very poor second best.

Something I think a lot of people miss is that a lot of subjects involve examinable coursework - this includes mainstream academic subjects. Where there is coursework the effect of good vs bad school is amplified. For my DD her poor school: lost coursework (badly supervised teacher), willfully didnt set coursework (lazy teacher), didnt cover the syllabus (poor subject supervision).

We would have been able to intervene more if the subjects had been purely end of year examination but with coursework the incompetence of the school management was hidden from us.

I am in Scotland and wish people fussed more!
People mostly use their catchment schools (although in Edinburgh 25% of pupils go private) but there is still entrenched disadvantage here.
Then there is a new exam system from next year that seems to be being used differently in neighbouring schools and yet there seems next to no discussion of it in the media.

I agree with you, I'm sending my children to the local comp. But then I'm lucky, last year 90% of children got 5A - C and 30% of children got 5A - A. Therefore, I am in a fortunate position to be able to say this.

However, has I lived in the local town, in the catchment area where the 5A* - C was only 38%, the school has been in and out of special measures for the past 10 years at least (including converting to academy status), and even this stat is doubled what it was a few years ago, when the number of children who got their A - Cs was around the 20% mark, and children are bullied / laughed at / picked on for being bright or working hard, then I would vehemently disagree with you.

OP your views are naive if you think everyone sending their child to the state comp is going to solve the problem. Trouble is, with the school above, the catchment area is almost entirely lower cost housing, where people have fewer options. Hence, that school is never going to get better. I remember my parents moved so I wouldn't have to go to that particular school, and that was almost 30 years ago. It really has been that bad that long!

Every child deserves the best start / education, no-one should have to settle for a second rate education. We should all be doing more, not less, to get all our children the best education possible.

[sorry for the rant, I'm a teacher and passionate about such things!]

Yes I did tiger train my daughter from the age of three something I regret to this day. As to sending her ti private boarding I am providing the best education can afford and she can aspire too. As a parent that us all I can do fir her...But if she can't be arsed to do well thats her problem. I do support and I do encourage her to be the best that she can be.

Yet I dont think it holds true that because your in a crap school that you automatically become a chav. I also don't think being a posh school will make you automatically successful.

Do good teachers influence pupils...yes they do...are state schools devoid of good teachers?...I dont think so..
In the same mode are private schools just full of good teachers?...

so yes it is bollocks that just because you come from a crap school that you wont be successful. Hell when we employ people and looking for a candidate for the hard jobs that require tough decsions I always try to hire them from the crap schools...They think faster on their feet....the PR jobs we give to the posh kids...better accents you know....

If you look at the statistics you'll see that most doctors, bunkers, solicitors etc had studied in private schools/grammars, yes there might be exceptions, but they are so rare that you only read about them in newspapers or hear about them on mumsnet. A parent that sends his child to a local comp and not taking a daily interest in their child's education must be very naive to believe that this child will become doctor/professional in an increasingly competitive world.

I mean bankers, stupid phone.

In my town we only have state schools, one is outstanding and another is good but quickly improving and has 2/4 ofsted sections as outstanding, this is the one I wanted for ds, it's the one I went to and the one that every single one if his friends from primary were going to. The rest are all much of a muchness but not great. My ds was originally assigned on of the lower end ones. I kicked up an all mighty fuss, I appealed and did days of research and writing and rewriting appeals and speeches etc. in the end he got in on the waiting list and he absolutely loves it there.

On the other hand, my friends ds goes to the school he was originally assigned, he is being mercilessly bullied for being a swot, it's so bad he has to post his homework into the school so no one sees him hand it in.

You may call it making a fuss, I call it caring about my dad's education and making sure the one chance he has of getting it right is the greatest chance of all.

Education is one if the greatest gifts you can give a child, I'm not going to fail at it.

Plenty of "Bunkers" from Comprehensive Schools.....

DH works in investment banking and he is laughing his head off at your post. He went to a grammar school and says it is sadly all about connections now, he had struggled himself despite being Oxbridge educated, due to his heavy northern accent and lack of connections. if you think a child from an average comp in Yorkshire can just walk into a banking job and earn over 100k you are kidding yourself.

Ha ha.....that is sad but so true....

Comprehensives develop the type of "Bunkers" that drive cars away from their Bank "Jobs" quickly.

soul
Until you've visited and spent time in as many comps / grammars / prep schools / secure special schools / posh boarding schools / secondary modern schools as DH has,
please stop extrapolating your personal loathing of comps
because your experience in no way reflects what goes on in much of the country

Linsey

That's my point though, perhaps everybody is wanting to be more upwardly mobile in terms of class.
I don't know many people from the schools you mention who want to work in banking earning over 100k. Their parents and themselves would consider it a whole different class to them and they would settle for something that would make them happy. You are doing no better earning 100k than 20k if you are happy with your choices.
Yes I can see that your choices would be different depending what school you went to but I know my sons and the dc they went to school with wouldn't be happy being bankers. Nobody likes them for a start

Linsey

Forgot to mention my dh went to a good grammar school and it made no difference to the choice of profession he entered.
He speaks and writes really good English though.
My dc went to local high school, neither will be doctors, solicitors, bankers, accountants, but they don't want to.
They do have talent in a particular sport which they play as amateurs representing their country and playing internationally. They are both employed too.

But morethan there are two points there.

First, that the sort of people who attend poor schools simply don't want better.

Second, that they shouldn't want better.

Of course not everyone will want to be a banker, but frankly they should have the choice. At the moment it is very hard for children from the majority of the community to access a certain sector of jobs.

And those jobs tend to be highly paid and have a high impact on many of us.

But getting a decent education isnt about becoming a banker. Neither of my DDs want to become bankers but both want to pursue careers in the sciences where a poor education at the outset will only hamper them.

Wordfactory, this is what I was trying to point out! The child should have a choice, how do you know he won't be happy being a doctor? Why so many people in UK don't have ambitions? of course it suits the ruling classes, there is less competition for the top jobs and the status quo stays the same.

Worry and word

Do you not think it is better to support the dc who don't have the choices of really good schools though?
My education was terrible but my parents did what they could to help me.
My point is its a waste of time moaning about your lot and also that dc will do well if they are so inclined whatever school they go to.
My ds aren't tremendously ambitious, my dd is. I don't think this would change whatever school they attended. Their schools weren't brilliant but there are many who went on to train as doctors, solicitors, pharmacists etc. Instead of earning huge salaries they earn less in a local firm. They have still achieved what they wanted to.

Talkinpeace. OK I admit it ,one of my Young Cousins went to a inner city Comprehensive, he is top of his 2nd year group studying Law. He is very impressive.

I'm 35 and my brother is 32. My parents had a monumental battle with the LEA at the time to get my brother into the state secondary school a year early as he was a high achiever. They also moved house to get into the catchment area for what was at the time, the best comprehensive in our town. My parents are not crazy pushy parents, but our nearest school was not good and they wanted to give us the best possible chances in life. We've just done similar to try to get our DD into the primary school we want for her. People have always made a fuss, but the current system seems to leave more people more dissatisfied!

I think it's far too conveneinet to say that most people don't want to be an x, y or z.

The fact is they have little in the way of meaningful choice.

Wheras for a small subset, there is proper choice.

I went to private selective schools and thence to a naice uni which is now RG
I rebelled as best I could and was determined never to work in an office
then I discovered I was good at Accountancy
F A I L (as the kids say)

you cannot predict what your kids want to do, you can just give them the widest possible options

and if you are unhappy with the school, become a Governor and change it (I did) or shut up.

I'm very lucky I don't have to worry about this until secondary school, I only listed one choice down for DD1 for Primary, local state school (not the closest but that's oversubscribed and I didn't want her going there anyway), there's 10 children in her year group and the school's been rated as outstanding in every area for its past two inspections. I wouldn't change her to the nearest private school even if I could afford it.
But once she's 11, as things stand, I'd want to send her somewhere better then the local comp. Which means taking her to church every Sunday to try and aid an application to a catholic school 10 miles away if financially I can't afford to send all 3 to private secondary schools by then.
And there are no Grammar schools in the 2 counties my home town borders!
I think its fairly normal for parents to be concerned what school their child attends, as they spend so much time there and it presumably will have a fairly hefty impact on their futures. I don't have any idea what my children will want to do with their lives, but I'd certainly like them to have the option to follow whichever path they should choose and I believe a good education provides more options.

morethan I think you must have missed all my posts. My DCs' secondary school is currently right at the bottom of the school league tables. It isnt simply about GCSE results. It is about preparation for the next stage in life.

Every aspect of my eldest DD's education was impacted by being at such a poor school. Her school education lacked any sort of breadth or depth. Preparation for exams was hugely stressful as she also had to prepare a lot of coursework at short notice due to problems in the school I described up thread.

The effects knocked on into her first year of sixth form as she found that she was way in terms of topics covered compared to students from other better (they are all better) schools.

We found out about the problems at the school very late (parents evening platitudes covered the gaping holes). Now that I understand this more clearly I am far more critical. I take every 'it's all fine' comment with a large pinch of salt. I no longer have any trust in the school.

Worry

This was exactly the same for my dc and lots of others too. I know where you are coming from, but that wasn't really part of the point I was making. I sympathise really I do as I know what it is like having been through it twice with my ds's.
It isn't the reason but I am so glad we H.ed our dd so won't go through it again.
My point was as there is little anybody can do about it, why fuss? it doesn't get us anywhere. Its better to support. I know we shouldn't have to but extra tuition sometimes seems a better option than trusting the school.
My other points were people whose dc weren't bright and not able to go to grammar, it doesn't matter. Imo that doesn't mean we ask for the grammar system to be scrapped.
I also think in terms of choice of occupation many dc in Private schools and certainly public schools are just as limited. They are put off any occupation such as plumbing, building, electrician, carpenter etc. The vocational occupations are deemed by their parents and tutors to be below them. How do we know how many would prefer to do something else other than the few professions deemed worthy for them.