Education superclass?

[Amber2]

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100245274/it-is-much-worse-than-sir-john-major-says-a-new-superclass-is-being-created-in-london/

This is interesting coming from John Major ...sounds like more lobbying along the lines of the Sutton Trust but do people really think it's much worse than it ever has been..? and this is do with with the inexorable rise of London...and the global money flowing in there...and so to creating an elite superclass of private schools also ...not just any old private school but a small handful of elite ones, applications to which have reached record numbers, presumably more and more from London and from overseas with over inflation rises in fees pricing out the traditional middle classes that used to be able to afford these schools.

lainie I take your point about the advantages of a London parental home in terms of internship opportunities, cheap accommodation as you get started etc. and was ever thus, I went to a uni popular with students from the Home Counties so witnessed it when I graduated as well, but actually the London property market is now more receptive to the new arrival than it was when I was entering it. I remember sleeping on floors and waiting in a queue at the doors of Capital radio to get our hands on the Capital flats for rent list first so we could get the flats before they went, usually within hours of being on the market. At risk of going a bit Monty Python we ended up in a damp vermin ridden dive in Deptford and thought we were lucky. Now my DD is a student in London and there are plenty of rental properties in the £500 pp pm category. My Kiwi friends daughter just arrived and got herself a non graduate admin job and flat in record time.

The real problem is the lack of graduate jobs, and even the prospect of a career. Even though I graduated in a recession, most of us landed one within six months of graduation. A lot of my DDs peers graduated this year and for all their advantages, elite schools whatever, just two have landed graduate jobs (and yes both were via Daddy). For the rest now starts the hard business of building up a CV etc. I don't envy any of them London based or not.

yes, rabbit, but I think the point about increasing lack of social mobility is the (even very clever) children of teachers would find it much harder to become bankers or top execs than the other way round unless those teachers are affluent and well connected in that sphere already. In fact children of bankers can probably do what they want and become bankers or for that matter, artists or yoga instructors if they so choose.

Actually the only one of the several of DDs' friends who do still actually want to be bankers (and most offspring of bankers don't because they understand the shitty quality of life a city career entails) is the one from Bradford who was on a Maths scholarship at uni. These days it is all about getting through the aptitude tests, very few banks allow the old boys network to prevail over recruitment.

Sorry somehow deleted part of that sentence, actually the only one of the several of DDs' friends who do still actually want to be bankers (and most offspring of bankers don't because they understand the shitty quality of life a city career entails) who has got an internship is the one from Bradford who was on a Maths scholarship at uni.

Yes, some things are easier. There were hardly any jobs when I graduated at all, made over 100 applications etc. and many in my generation never got much of a job even with a degree although a few years later the economy did pick up. Secondly there were no rented properties to be had as landlords could never evict tenants and rents were frozen so of course there was just about no private rented sector. That problem was removed with assured shortholds. Some of my children have or do rent rooms in flats in London and it's not that hard to do although of course it is now and was then fairly expensive.

As for the ambitions of children of teachers I suspect my mother (a teacher) wanted us all to earn a bit more than she did although we were never pushed into any particular career. We all chose professions and that has served us very well. The next generation so far have done the same but there is no obligation on them to do so.

I agree with the person above who mentioned choice. If you give children choices, a wide education with lots of opportunities and a mind set that they can achieve most things if they really want to that is good. Don't give them so much money they never choose to work of course.

On the car things yes we had a volvo which lasted 17 years, often have the worst car around and probably in many contexts earn the most and I love that difference - that no one has any idea. It's a very English thing rather than new money show it off with silly overly expensive cars which are so non U.

Well my nephew got into a well known bank..doing a really good bankers jobs...but the long hours he has to work really is not good for the dear boy....
Its 21:30 in HK and Im still working from home....ha ha so much for the great expat life....

I need to buy a Volvo....

However I do take your point about social mobility, most of my friends who are in banking, law, advertising etc etc do come from ordinary backgrounds and my lowly RG university, and some even studied Humanities, but acknowledge they would not stand a chance now. However it is more about ability than old boy's networks. It is about going to the 6 or so universities that the companies have declared by whatever subjective criteria to be best and passing the stiff STEM skills weighted aptitude tests.

Actually.....It really is if the face fits..if you goto an interview full of shit...basically we arent gonna employ you....If you go with your parents and they answer all the questions we aint gonna employ you....but if you come with a great resume ....good references from reputable people and you fit the company then more than likely you will get in....Read up on what the company wants....and expects...It does help...

O and another point race, colour and creed doesnt matter as most well paying companies are multinationals....Although a second language is preferable....even though many on here say its not...(albeit being fluent in your second language is essential being able to order food in a bar is not really helpful..
) ...

I very much doubt that law or advertising have STEM skills weighted aptitude tests. I know that accountancy doesn't. I agree that many of the more generously paying graduate trainee recruiters do have clear ideas about what is a preferred university (however these aren't always RG and the weighting given to university attended varies by organisation - there is also the issue of post grad university, years abroad etc)

The STEM skill set to pass the aptitude tests is vital (along with a language for some of the banks) for banking. In the case of advertising you need to have a portfolio of videos / creative work as well as an "interesting" CV of creative / mind extending activities, especially if it involves new platforms. For law obviously it is vocational and I get the impression that they are the most focused on certain unis, and recruiting in their own image.

I worked in advertising for a while and was appalled at how many people there were the offspring of the clients... The client is king and if someone says, "My son would like to work in advertising..." the guy is in no matter what his worth or, in most cases, lack of it.

laine That is definitely still going on as far as internships are concerned though I don't think the progeny of Marketing Directors are doing so well in terms of actual jobs. However since most Marketing Directors are a. not in London and b. not super rich that would surely be a means of undermining the rich bankers and oligarchs grip on the job market

Do investment banks and hedge funds do personality assessments to look out for the unethical, risk-taking, evading-personal-responsibility personalities, too?

rabbitstew They don't need to, they have rather proved that by applying in the first place

shooting obviously STEM is vital for banking. Although tis the M that really matters not the S. I said I didn't believe that was the case for law and advertising, since I Know it's not the case for accountancy which is a more numerate profession. And you now seem to acknowledge that.

I know it's only a small point but there is so much misinformation floating around on so many MN threads and a lot of it seems almost designed to discourage people from doing things that are actually perfectly reasonable and achievable for them. I'm sure it's not intentional.

In general it's easier now if you are from a more humble background than it used to be. I don't agree it is harder. Recruiters are better at having open processes. There will be on line applications based on UCAS points where they don't even know your accent or religion when you get through that stage. They want the best people.

Also these days plenty of the professions' internships or rather university vacation placements are paid (e.g. £250 a week www.aograduate.com/what-we-offer/vacation-schemes/#item1 ). That is arguably better not worse than things used to be. Not all careers are the same however. I think in journalism and fashion for example unpaid internships are and always have been very common.

Has anybody looked at the link above from Elizabeth?

The blurb says that one of the students joined for a vacation job in March 2015 and the next one says 2014.

Hey, what's a year or two eh? Darn right that not all careers are the same.

I think the dates mean the dates they will start their training contracts, not the date they did their vacation placements. When I did summer vacation placements with a couple of City law firms (quite a few years ago, now...) they were done in my second year at university (studying law) and interviews for an actual training contract then took place pretty soon after that (there was a date from when law firms were permitted to start interviewing, as they were not allowed to offer jobs directly to the vacation placement students just on the basis of those placements, they had to do formal interviews with them along with everyone else and could only offer places once all interviews were complete). I thus had two years to go from then before I started my training contract, one more at university and another at law school. Non-lawyers would have even longer to go, as they had to do a law conversion course before the LPC. It was rather nice having a job in the bag so far in advance of completing my degree!

Rabbitstew. Just read! It is not about what you think. It is about what this firm has on their website.

"Having decided on a change of direction into a law career I set about looking into the sort of firm I wanted to work for. For me the greatest test was to get out and meet the people that actually worked for the firm at the campus events. It was here that Allen & Overy really stood out. Their training is considered to be of the highest standard and their global presence offers great opportunities for travel, which were key factors for me, but also the engagement and genuine interest that was shown from partners and trainees alike made a great impression on me.

Being from a background quite disparate to law I felt that getting some hands on experience was essential; the vacation scheme at Allen & Overy, thankfully open to postgraduate students, was the perfect opportunity for me. During the placement my trainer took the time to explain the work that he was doing and endeavoured to get me involved on many projects wherever possible. Here I saw the collaboration that goes on between groups; even when in different countries. I was also set a challenging due diligence exercise by a partner giving me a great insight into one of the main tasks performed during the acquisition of a company.

In addition to the departmental work, group based tasks were set for the vacation students including a client pitch and negotiating exercises. There was definitely always something to do and the fact that the lawyers work very hard was not concealed from us. However, the need to have fun was also stressed with social events organised for the vacation students to get to know each other and to meet some trainees to ask questions about everyday life at Allen & Overy.

The vacation scheme gave me some great experience and highlighted Allen & Overy as a firm with an open and friendly culture. Teamwork is promoted creating a great work environment and allowing for the best possible service to be provided to clients. These factors along with the stimulating and global nature of the work mean I am very excited about joining the Allen & Overy team."

Why do you even want to make excuses for that sort of crap on a lawyers' website? They can't even get the correct dates for their students. Pathetic!

Buster both students did a vacation course while still at university (ie before their second or third year). They were clearly both offered training contracts, one will be starting next March (after finishing his one year at the college or law or wherever) the other (who didn't do law at Uni so will have to do the 2 year course) will be joining in March 2015. So he's in his first year of conversion. They both say in their pieces how much they enjoyed working on the vacation scheme (might not have been the same one, they could have been in different offices) and how much they are looking forward to joining the firm. Join date means the date they are scheduled to join the firm. For law students the ideal path is to secure a training contract as early as possible during their university time so that there is a chance of (a) holiday work and (b) the firm paying all or some of the law school fees.

Obviously the (mis)use of the word disparate is not ideal, but I have had dealings with lawyers who mangled the language far more exuberantly than that. The pieces are very 'how wonderful are my future employers, let me count the ways' but recruitment material is always like that. If someone asks you for a few quotes about your (already contracted) future employer you aren't going to say 'he's a bit of a shithead' are you.

BusterKeaton - I agree, it is silly to refer to their "Position" as Vacation Student when they have already finished their placements and their real position is now that of future employees who have committed to join the firm in March 2014 or 2015. However, if I wanted to work in a City Law Firm, I wouldn't let that stop me applying. It won't have been one of the lawyers who drafted the publicity, anyway, so it's their marketing and HR departments that need bollocking!

A list of entirely honest reasons for applying to the firm would make amusing reading, but I don't think they would necessarily reflect any better on A&O!

Most law firm vacation placements are done by law students not in their final year as the firms recruit largely from those on the placements and recruit a few years ahead. It works very well. It means those who rae not very well off get their one or two years at law school after their degree paid for by the firm and an annual allowance of say £5000 a year too and even that student holiday work is paid too. That is brilliant if you are that rare very clever student from a very poor home. I was just saying law is much better than say journalism. I doubt many newspapers pay students in summer holidays for work nor sponsor them through post grad journalism courses and then train them at work for 2 years.

All recruitment websites have to make out it's a great place to work. All students know the reality is that the more positive comments are the ones likely to be included but it's not fake or wrong. It's just what any website marketing something is going to say. The profit for each of their equity partners is £1.1m I think so it's not a bad firm to start in.