Genuine question - why do some people have a problem with the grammar school system thread 2

[octopusinastringbag]

Original thread full so here goes.

I think the people who are concerned about aspirational/non-aspirational need to trust their DCs to select friends who are like minded. Generally it is my experience that they find their own groups who are similar to them, especially with setting and especially once the GCSEs have started.

"If anything, those children in the lower sets need even more protection from disruptive pupils than the able ones do."

"I agree. But there won't be any mumsnetters children in the lower sets, will there? Or in secondary moderns? They'll all be either in the top sets of comprehensives or in the grammar schools!"

I advocate setting or streaming actually by behaviour rather than ability. That way pupils who really want to learn and need the best environment for that will get it.

Its helps of course if you have small classes and preferably too, small schools.

Having said that in my school we do not have disruption because we do not tolerate it.

It's a mixture of culture, good management and nurture. I really don't think it's just grammers that offer this.

The local comp dd went to was a sports academy apparently got great at OFSTED. Dd came home one night in year 8 and shown me a video that she had recorded.
Two girls were singing , two boys were wrestling and the teacher was obviously struggling to keep order. She said she couldn't help but join in and she wasn't doing her work.

I moved her out the school that week to one in a more effluent area. It meant a bus and train ride. Even when I was doing a tour of the school the behaviours and culture was remarkable .

She did fantastic at that school, it was strict and the norm was to study and strive to achieve - which she did.

Her old school mates were still getting pissed on the market stalls , came of school was naff all.

^curlew Wed 30-Oct-13 12:00:12
"As long as it is not done at the expense of my DC, fine. Otherwise, we come back to the situation of "sacrificing two MC children a year into comprehensives". Yes, it will be exactly that, lambs to slaughter."

Words just fail me. I can't be arsed to fight this one any more- the prejudice, ignorance and downright unpleasantness is just awful. "Lambs to the slaughter" "great unwashed" "they should go away and never come back". If you would only listen to yourselves!^

with respect, Curlew, it is not half as unpleasant as when your child gets bullied in a local state school and there is nothing you can do as a parent, as you are unable to put them into private or to move to a better, more expensive area to get them into a better state school. When you are stuck, it is the most horrible feeling. It is much much better to have options. This is why I love the idea of having a go at getting into a grammar. It is something I can be in control of to a degree.

I have never felt less in control than I did when waiting for my DDs' 11+ results. And everyone who knew them (other than me) was convinced they were shoo ins. If you are looking for a feeling of being in control then the 11+ process is not for you. And as many people have pointed out - people with kids actually at grammar schools - bullying happens in grammars too.

Words just fail me. I can't be arsed to fight this one any more- the prejudice, ignorance and downright unpleasantness is just awful. "Lambs to the slaughter" "great unwashed" "they should go away and never come back". If you would only listen to yourselves!^

A general question, why is it so wrong for a parent to want to protect their own children Curlew?

Perhaps instead of being so shocked you should listen to yourself instead.

Basically everyone wants the same, an atmosphere where all children are treated as individuals, want to learn, value education and don't have to put up with disruption.
This should be the aim for all pupils. The above average, and the MC, and the ones with money are not special cases- it should be for all.

While we haven't got it you can't blame parents from making sure their own children get it. I want the best for mine, as does everyone else.

Sorry- I meant everyone on this thread, or everyone who bothers with MN. The whole problem is caused by parents who don't care about any of it!

Yes, it is absolutely awful to see your child being bullied and feel helpless. However, the single worst case of bullying I have ever come across happened at a very well regarded prep school, carried on at Winchester and only stopped when the person concerned went to a different university to his tormentors. A boy's grammar school near us has a reputation for "nerds" being bullied by sporty boys while teachers turn a blind eye.

It is ridiculous to say that you are protected from being bullied by going to any specific type of school. It is even more ridiculous to assume that your child will be bullied before you even go to the school.

"And, while there might be some bullying, I'm willing to bet my house there'll be no stabbings."

Which are of course par for the course at non selective schools

What there is in grammar schools is alcohol and drugs. Because the kids tend to have more disposable income. So, swings and roundabouts, really.

Oh, and before anyone asks me for evidence, I am basing my statements on 17 years of living in a selective area, and knowing a lot of children of all ages in all the local schools.

My dcs are both natural rule followers and like calm in the classroom but both willing to complain to the teachers if they don't get it. Both have in some way complained and they were taken seriously by the schools. Neither has been bullied and ds in particular very geeky. But I have taught them just to do their own thing and ignore comments. Both have done that. No stabbings at the schools near us apart from the recent case of a private school kid stabbing another child. The only time I was ever bullied is in the workplace. Thankfully I had the gumption to do something about it from my comp background. Bullying happens in marriages, in school clubs, in the workplace. Far better for the child to learn how to deal with comments at a younger age and to stand up to bullies rather than shield them. At DS's school it is now far stricter than I remember, school uniform strict rules, business dress in sixth form, which I disagree with by the way. If you are caught using a mobile even in the playground it is taken off you and parent has to collect. They use a system of rewards and punishments which encourages good behaviour. You need to find a good comp before writing all comps off altogether.

There were drug issues when I was growing up at the superselectives. I read somewhere the more intelligent a kid is, the more likely they are to try drugs. When there are lots if academic kids I can see this. I remember my uni days! Dread to think of private selectives - with money and brains.

Had you actually considered reading what people say, rather than posting nonsense?

LaQueen Sorry to disabuse you but: of course there will be some bullying at a grammar school. But at least children won't be bullied because they're clever, or geeky, or doing well in class, or getting good grades. Nope, that's not a given.

As for stabbings - there have been no stabbings at my DD1's grammar school. There have also been no stabbings at my DS's comp. I think 'no stabbings' is the sort of bar that most schools can clear, actually.

And now curlew is exaggerating for presumably dramatic effect. Drugs and alcohol are no more prevalent in grammar schools than comps. Some have them, some don't, plenty of wealthy families send kids to comps. Especially in those place where comps comprise the whole of the state system. Posh schools, they have more substance abuse problems.

Where there is more money there are more drugs. I have a friend who teaches at a boarding school and some of the pupils get a ridiculous amount of pocket money.

I can't even remember there being a stabbing at the truly awful, notice to improve school that is one of the non selective options in our area. Lots of bullying though.

Curlew Perhaps what you are actually saying is Kent has a terrible substance abuse problem. I know someone who is head of a charity in deprived area of Kent and from what I've heard from her, I'd agree. But as I have said to you so very many times Kent is not the world.

Grammar schools are like comprehensive schools i.e. the good, the bad and the indifferent.

Sorry, Xoanon- in our area grammars are posh schools!

Lovely rural areas have terrible drug problems, it is something that isn't really discussed.