Genuine question - why do some people have a problem with the grammar school system

[englishteacher78]

I went to one - my choice in part, parents would have preferred me to go to the Catholic secondary. As a teacher I have worked in two.
I know if I had gone to the Catholic school I would have coasted (even more than I did).
Some people seem to he very against the grammar school system and I'm not sure why. It was the making of my dad (miner's son from council estate in Scotland)and I think that all counties should have that provision. Surely it's just split site streaming in a way.

164 grammar schools left I think it is Satin. Still very few in terms of actual numbers of schools, and mostly clustered in the 3 main grammar counties and cities like London and Birmingham.

Satinsandals
there are 164 grammars, but the vast bulk of them are in Kent or in the bits of London that used to be Kent.

Statistically, the number of kids going to Oxbridge and RG Unis from Comps is only about 10-15% from where it should be, so is not a concern of mine.
I can explain the maths if you like but its very long.

Marina,

Oddly, it's both - a lunch time club which leads to the GCSE. 2 other minority languages are taught the same way (after school due to availability of teachers at that time), both to GCSE, and then offered in curriculum time at A-level.

So DS, if he wished to, could take 2 out of the 3 languages offered (French, Spanish and Russian) to GCSE during school timetabled time, and 2 out of the 3 others offered to GCSE out of timetabled time.

That does sound good! Too often IME the club setting is just not resourced/followed through/sustainable enough to enable GCSE-level studies to be a realistic prospect. Or maybe we were just not very lucky with the schools we visited, but nothing like that was on offer.

Merry, I think the system as it is in my area would be better for society as a whole because parents having options for their children has to be a good thing.

Those with money have choices, and when it's something as important as education, I think those of us that can't afford school fees should have options too.

If grammar schools were evenly spaced across the country then we would all be able to choose them for our children provided they have the ability, without affecting the intakes of other schools. It might mean sacrifices in terms of the travelling time to get to school and the cost of getting to that school, but as parents it's up to us to weigh up the benefits and the disadvantages of that and make the right choice for our own children.

Grammar schools do tend to turn out well qualified and well educated young people, and that has to be good for society too. Ok, so the comps can and do do the same, and that's great as well. I just don't think it has to be either fully comprehensive (which will never happen as long as private schools exist anyway) and fully selective.

An opt in system is the best of both worlds.

"I would say that the bottom set ever catching up with the top in this latter scenario is extremely difficult and unlikely. It is much easier to slow the top down and wait for the rest, and this is exactly what happens in a lot of comps."

Please could you quote some sources for this statement.

Sorry, missed a digit off but my point is that is a tiny amount when you consider that there were 1298 in 1964.

An opt in system is the best of both worlds.

But that is not what happens.
On another thread somebody posted that a parent should send their kids to a fee paying prep school to guarantee a place at a good grammar.

What hope have the bright kids of indigent parents got when the sharp elbowed middle classes hog all the places at the segregated schools.

In parts of London the deal is "pay / pray / move away"
not really options for the 50% of households living on less than £26,000 a year.

My area comprehensives send just as many to Oxbridge as grammar schools because there are no grammar schools and the parents are highly educated and expect, and get, the same from comprehensives.

Sharp elbows aren't something that comes with having money, and prep school doesn't guarantee entry into grammar schools.

The bright kids of poor parents have just as much chance as the bright kids of rich parents if their parents put the effort in. Or if private schools are made to start offering tuition for the 11+ if they want their charity status, which I think would be a much better way of levelling the playing field than abolishing successful schools would be.

You say that middle classes 'hog' the places, which just sounds a little pathetic to me tbh. Every child has a right to a good state school place, no matter what class they are from, and if the MC parents are making more effort for their children than the WC parents, then the fault lies with the WC parents. I don't think it's like that though, plenty of WC parents make the effort for their dc.

The school places situation in London is another thread in itself.

WooWoo- do you really think that a well off educated middle class family doesn't have a better chance of getting their kid to grammar school than a poor, less well educated working class one? Really? You don't think that money, time, confidence, ability to understand and access the system counts for anything?

No to mention the sense of entitlement that being privileged brings?

^curlew Mon 28-Oct-13 17:54:13
"I would say that the bottom set ever catching up with the top in this latter scenario is extremely difficult and unlikely. It is much easier to slow the top down and wait for the rest, and this is exactly what happens in a lot of comps."

Please could you quote some sources for this statement.^

this is my experience (and the people I know) I spoke of. It would be interesting to know how the bottom set ever catches up if they miss out on topics/ do not cover them in such detail. For instance, with my DS, he missed out a year's worth of topics which the top set have done. If I was not switched on enough to detect he was in the bottom set - I was told by the teacher he was doing great at the time, indeed, it took some ingenuity to get the words "bottom of the class" out of her. How would it have been possible for my DS to be moved to the top set after missing that much? If I did not do all that work at home with him? If somebody spotted his abilities, would he be offered extra tuition to cover the syllabus the others have done?

Just for the record, all of this took place in a good MC state primary. Some posts sound like a dream to me. If a comp like they describe, with Latin etc. was available to my DC, why would I worry about the 11+ and put myself and my DC through the stress? There would be no need for that whatsoever. In my area, I know not a single secondary offering Latin. But I know a former grammar turned private school which does. No bright, but poor children go there any more. The other would-be-nearest grammar sadly closed down a couple of decades ago. There are several others left further away. They do offer a much better provision in terms of curriculum, and there is less of a disruptive element - after all, the children worked hard to get there.

In truth, I would rather have the two local grammars still open to me. If my DC passes, now it will be a long commute...

I think you are being quite small minded to assume that every middle class family has a sense of entitlement or that they have privilege.

This comes back to the whole obsession that MN seems to have with class, middle classes especially.

It is very presumptuous of you to assume that middle class automatically means money, time and confidence and privilege.

Working class parents can and do have those things, and 'the system' really isn't that hard to understand or access. It's filling in a form and turning up on the right day.

I realise that severely disadvantaged families may find it more difficult to apply for a GS place than most, but I don't think that's a reason to deny other people a good opportunity.

if the MC parents are making more effort for their children than the WC parents, then the fault lies with the WC parents.

No. This is wrong. We all, whether or not we have children, pay to educate every child regardless of their parents. A system that tests the parent is not effective state education.

Also, private schools in themselves are not an argument for grammar schools because we don't have to have private schools.

I wish there was a type face that means "in general". It is incredibly tedious when you say something that is obviously meant as an "in general but of course this does not apply universally" statement and people come back with "but you're being small minded-not everyone is like this"

Please assume my last post was typed in Times New Roman generalization

Summerworld
But the lower sets do not do the full curriculum that the upper sets do in secondary school. They do the core
Middle do core plus extention
Upper do core plus extension plus twiddly bits
perfectly logical

Class matters in UK society. It's still incredibly important. Other factors - gender, ethnicity, money - come into play too, obviously. This isn't a value judgement - or only insofar as it is a value judgement on a society where class is a factor. It is an observation.

I realise that severely disadvantaged families may find it more difficult to apply for a GS place than most, but I don't think that's a reason to deny other people a good opportunity.

I can understand the argument that the opportunity might not be available now in the range of schools available to you. However, its not a good opportunity if its equally available in a comprehensive.

There are 511 comprehensives offering Latin, 104 grammar schools and 403 in independent sector offering Latin in 2011.

DS started Latin in year 6 at his state primary.

Merry, but if every child has access to a good education, whether it be in a comp or a grammar, then I find it difficult to see the problem there.

Effective state education in my mind means providing a good and suitable education for every child. A SS GS in every county wouldn't prevent that.

Curlew, even as a generalisation, I think it's unfair. It comes across as critical of parents who are just doing their best for their children's education with no valid reason behind it.

Sorry 'were' not are.I could only find figures for 2011.

You can also do the Cambridge Latin course on line at any point in your life.

However, its not a good opportunity if its equally available in a comprehensive.

I think that's something that should be left to individual parents to decide for their own children.

I will repeat that DD1's school is one of those that people get all aerated at on MN. I've recently been on a thread where someone explicitly thought of it as a substandard option. Is not posh.