Genuine question - why do some people have a problem with the grammar school system

[englishteacher78]

I went to one - my choice in part, parents would have preferred me to go to the Catholic secondary. As a teacher I have worked in two.
I know if I had gone to the Catholic school I would have coasted (even more than I did).
Some people seem to he very against the grammar school system and I'm not sure why. It was the making of my dad (miner's son from council estate in Scotland)and I think that all counties should have that provision. Surely it's just split site streaming in a way.

I'm not arguing that grammar schools are a better way of educating the more able though.

I'm just glad that it was an option for us, not because it was better, but because it was different. Different in a way that has benefitted my child, who I don't think would have done as well at the comp because of the social side of things, not because of the academic.

Hmmm - can't see 'we should return to grammars because some children might find them a better fit socially (I am being kind here and thinking perhaps you mean smaller / single sex rather than 'not having people in it who are Not Like Us')' being the most powerful ever argument....

You are being cynical!

There might be lots of GS parents that have a bad attitude towards 'the great unwashed' but we aren't all like that! Off the top of my head I can think of 5 other parents in my ds's class that also have children at comps, and I'm sure there's more I don't know about.

For the sake of honesty, I will also say that there are some that will make their children do every common entrance exam within 20 miles to avoid comps if their children don't pass the 11+, but they aren't all like that.

Why do we never have threads asking for Secondary Modern and Technical schools to be brought back across the whole country?

As that is the implication if grammars were rolled out everywhere, rather than in just a few places

remember that there are only 90 grammar schools outside the three designated counties .....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England

I didn't want to get into personal details too much, but when I think the GS was a better fit socially for one of my dc it is because of a few things.

The size is one of them, but the main thing for my socially awkward 11yo was going to be that he would have taken forever to settle in at the comp when they have lessons in so many different groups. He finds it hard enough to make friends anyway, and he would have struggled having lessons with four different groups of people every day. My younger dc has no problem with it at all, but then he had solid friendships before he started secondary. Ds1 didn't.

At the GS, they were taught in their form groups for every subject for the whole of the first year, so plenty of time to get to know people in a structured environment. He also had more chance of finding other children that he had something in common with in a smaller school with similar people than he would ever have had at the comp that is twice the size.

Woowoo,

That form group arrangement (except for Maths, which is set) is exactly what DS's comp has for Year 7 (DS has many ASD traits, though they have reduced somewhat with age, so I do understand where you are coming from).

Had you had a different comp on your doorstep, then a grammar school might not have been 'the answer' - because the arrangement that you describe is not 'a grammar school one', just 'a particular school's one' IYSWIM? It's not a sector difference, just a school by school comparison.

WooWoo
Teaching mostly in tutor group in year 7 is not unusual.
Setting kicks in first in maths and sciences - because maths is the subject with the most 'early developers'
but full setting is often deferred until year 8 or even year 9

I know it's just a comparison between two schools, but unless I moved house, which I can't afford and don't want, those are the two schools I had access to.

I'm thankful that the GS has provided an opportunity for us at the same time as allowing my ds to study more maths than I think is reasonable, and Classics.

It's something that I feel lucky to have as an option, so I'd like it to be an option for other people too.

As I don't see that us having the option of a GS is detrimental to anyone else in any way, I will defend the GS that we have.

I know it's not the same in fully selective areas and that there are very definite flaws in those systems, but I think that those flaws encourage people to disagree with the existence of all grammar schools whether they are in selective areas or not.

"What are the benefits of a grammar school education over being educated in the top set of a comprehensive school?"

In my part of SE London, the chance to do a better choice of MFLs, which really matters to some families, mine included. We looked at three excellent comprehensives locally, one of which offered French OR Spanish, one of which offered French AND Spanish but only to the top set, and one offered Spanish and French or German.

I don't think that choice is good enough, there are comprehensives out there which offer Mandarin, Russian, Italian and Japanese, plus Latin...but we are not in catchment for any of those. So I've sent both my dcs to grammars on that basis alone.

Two of the above mentioned comprehensives are in a LEA with no grammars and could in no way be described as disadvantaged by "creaming off". They just don't want to bother investing in building up their MFL teaching. One of the Heads of KS3 as good as said so to me at their open day.

how are they for sciences, humanities and arts - just in case your kids get to year 9 and want to drop all languages ....

wrt to easy movement between sets in comprehensive education, I had the chance to experience that. Admittedly, it happened in the early stages of education, but I would imagine the same would ring true at any point. My DS was put in a bottom set in a good state primary. And I was appalled at the difference in tasks/topics covered by the children in the bottom set (incl. my son) and those in the top set. Asking to move my DS and saying he can do a lot better than a basic level had no effect. So I had to appoint myself a tutor to my DS and did the school curriculum with him at home AFTER school. Nobody ever tested him throughout the year and he stayed at the bottom of his class until the end of the year. Now, the next year a new teacher came, and did her own tests and put my DS in the top group. Everybody, including the headteacher, marvelled at a wonderful progress he has made in the 6-weeks holiday.

Actually, if I did not bother as much as I did, and did not teach him throughout the year the topics which the top group had covered in class, but my DS hadn't (due to being in the bottom set), he would still be in that bottom group.

Easy movement between sets is due to one of the two things: either the top set are held back and are simply doing more of the same (as one other poster witnessed), rather than galloping ahead. OR the bottom sets have an awful lot of extra tuition at school to not only get them to understand the basics, but somehow to make them catch up with the bright classmates (who are allowed to progress through topics at a much higher speed). I would say that the bottom set ever catching up with the top in this latter scenario is extremely difficult and unlikely. It is much easier to slow the top down and wait for the rest, and this is exactly what happens in a lot of comps.

Broadly the same on sciences, fine
Only allowed to do one humanity, ie History or Geography, at one comprehensive, otherwise broadly the same
Arts - wider choice of subjects at the comprehensives, but not really a draw for my dcs

But my dcs like languages and are already good at them, and wanted the chance to do Japanese and Russian in particular. Neither dc is musical, or particularly arty.

School choice largely determined by them, not me

As a comparison then, my local Girl's grammar, highly regarded, offers only French, Spanish and German.
There is no Latin and Greek.......funny that as from reading this thread you would think this was an essential part of a grammar school.

Interestingly, they enter less students for separate sciences than the comprehensive that I work at in the same area, about 18 less students. They have a only a few less students in their cohort.

It is much easier to slow the top down and wait for the rest, and this is exactly what happens in a lot of comps.
Do you have evidence for that?
Certainly not what goes on at the schools round here.

The sets are fluid in year 7, sticky in year 8 and solidified by year 9

And the top sets are doing very different work from the lower sets by year 11 - triple science in the same timetable space that the bottom set do single science for example.

'It is much easier to slow the top down and wait for the rest, and this is exactly what happens in a lot of comps'

This is precisely the sort of generalised and quite damaging statement that I referred to earlier.

Education now is supposed to be personalised to individual pupils, both within and between sets. I honestly think that some posters think lessons are just 'Right....you lot will be doing p34-35 and Jimmy's lot next door will be doing p18.....cos they're thickos'.

I have already, personally managed the move of 2 Y11 pupils, 2 Y10 pupils and 2 Y9 pupils between sets since the beginning of September. For various reasons.....mostly pupil and parental requests, but also pupils that have come to us with very little information to go on.

Fair enough Pat, I know of a couple of grammars locally that also don't do much with MFL and we didn't apply to those either.
I don't see good MFL provision as something only grammars can/should provide - like I said, there is a brilliant comprehensive near us that offers MFL specialism, but we are out of catchment for it.
It's just that none of our catchment comprehensives provide all of what dd would like to study, whereas our nearest grammar does. If we could have got her into Bullers Wood - the comprehensive in question - we'd have sent her there.

[Mentions as an aside that DS's comprehensive does Latin ...]

Also no evidence of top set being 'slowed down' .... much more a case of 'your Year 9 target is X' - DS's is an 8A in Maths, for example, based on his level 6 in Year 6 - 'and we're going to beat it if we can, as we want to see just how far you as an individual can go'

Good for him Teacher, as a volunteer primary Latin teacher I think that's fantastic. Unfortunately none of the comprehensives, nor one of the grammars, we looked at, have followed your son's school's example.
I do hope that's as a curriculum subject giving him the chance to take the GCSE, and not as a club taught after school.

DCs comp has Latin on the curriculum until next June and then the teacher retires.
It is a great shame that they have not been able to get a replacement teachers as DS will not get the benefits that DD has received.

They certainly don't 'slow down the top' in my DCs comprehensive, they need the high flyers and they need to send to Oxbridge every year, the best results the more applications from parents who expect the best for their DCs. I am in an area of highly educated parents ,with no grammar schools,and most people can't afford to put several children through private education.
You would never guess from this thread that there are only about 64 grammar schools left!
I am glad that someone came up with accurate figures for getting to Oxbridge, proving that comprehensives send more than grammar schools, which they would have to do when there are so few grammar schools left.
My friends DD has just started at Cambridge from her comprehensive, she is in no way unusual.

My old grammar still exists and has 100% A-C pass rate at GCSE. The old secondary modern other members of the family went to/suffered is now part of some High School conglomeration of a number of local schools and its results are some of the worst in the country. It was the same when I was a nipper but when we were at our rather good primary school together I don't recall there being so much of a gulf between children's attainments so what on earth is going on at secondary level?

Especially as I've noticed as soon as my family members got away from that secondary modern now High School into a post 16 college they start romping away again.

[Mentions yet again that DD1's repository of Sarf Lunnon non-leafiness is teaching her French, German and Latin...oh, and it's a science specialism school ]

but I think that those flaws encourage people to disagree with the existence of all grammar schools whether they are in selective areas or not.

But then equally you have to make the counter argument that the grammar school system is better for society as a whole - not just that looking at the small group of schools available to your children now, the grammar school is the best option. I don't think this argument has been made effectively on this thread.

That's sad talkinpeace, but not very surprising, as the number of Classics graduates is in a complete slump right now due to the loss of several university departments. The Primary Latin Project and the Isis Project are doing good work in encouraging younger children to take an interest in Latin and the popularity of the Caroline Lawrence books has helped.
Latin can be fun and surprisingly relevant for children of all abilities and can really help with making sense of English grammar. It is such a shame it is not more accessible to more children really