Genuine question - why do some people have a problem with the grammar school system

[englishteacher78]

I went to one - my choice in part, parents would have preferred me to go to the Catholic secondary. As a teacher I have worked in two.
I know if I had gone to the Catholic school I would have coasted (even more than I did).
Some people seem to he very against the grammar school system and I'm not sure why. It was the making of my dad (miner's son from council estate in Scotland)and I think that all counties should have that provision. Surely it's just split site streaming in a way.

He started in the comprehensive , he has quite complex special needs. A number of incidents between my son and other students meant that my son was facing a permanent exclusion. The grammar is the second nearest school to us, the other school in the middle also had pupils in it that were involved in a hate campaign against my son which resulted in his exclusions.

I never wanted my son to go to the grammar , I was heartbroken when he had to go and as expected he was bullied there too.

I have seen students get into the grammar who were quite average. I know teachers who work in the grammar who struggle with these children when they get them. I know lots of parents who tell me about the intensive tuition .

Add message | Report | Message poster MiniMonty Sat 26-Oct-13 03:02:05
PS, you've split an infinitive there babe.

Difficult to be distinctly average.

Maybe that is evidence that I am distinctly average.

I will hold my hand up and admit that when faced with a learning centre, with the other student who had repeatedly threatened my son with a knife or the grammar- I chose the grammar.

Sounds like you have lots of issues to deal with and as one parent to another I completely sympathise and hope you find the right way through.

Having had experience with working at grammar schools I am absolutely sure that the school will come down on any bullying like a ton of bricks - if it's not working out for your son then talk to the head pronto.

The grammar school were not particularly interested in helping my son, I was told that he should " man up" .

He was regularly beaten up - ironically for being a geek at the grammar.

I by and large dealt with it myself by calling in the police, they got bored and moved on.

All I can say is..

Private schools are doing great do not interfere with them. If they aren't let them fail and be away with them.

Grammar schools make more of them let the brightest of the bright in. Don't select on post case but on exam results instead.

Comprehensive schools if the are in the local middle class areas keep them. They are doing well...Those who are not doing well then let the one who is doing well maintain it and share resources with it.

This will get me flamed but I think kids who do not reach certain academic levels. They should be given the opportunity to follow a trade and apprenticeship..

NOT all kids can be academic.

Arisbottle I do agree with you on the waste of money on intensive tutoring...

Minimonty, there are so many things in your recent posts I want yo question, but I'll start with one. What % of the kids at Birmingham grammars are on FSM?

Of course you can be tutored to pass exams. You can be tutored/coached/trained to improve your performance at anything, including producing some creative writing in an exam.

Grammar school exams are competitive. It doesn't matter whether you get 50%, 75% or some other random mark. What matters is that you scored more highly than somebody else.

With exam technique, question practice and complete knowledge of the syllabus you will score more highly than somebody with equivalent abilities, but no preparation.

The problem is that the supporters of the selective school system are so invested in it being fair that that they can't even contemplate the idea that it might be. They have to believe that the tests are untutorable. That any child, regardless of background has an equal chance of passing. Because they know that if these two things are not true then the system is indefensible.

Sorry might not be, obviously,

Of course you can tutor for exams, and grammar schools do not like those who were drilled to get a place and then can't keep up. You teach to the test, I have done it as a tutor although not for 11+ because, thankfully, I do not live in a grammar school area.
I failed because I didn't understand exam technique at 10 yrs of age.

We all know that the tests are tutorable, curlew, selective schools complain about it and try their best to eliminate it,but can't. There is a huge industry built up around it. People are not going to pay over £20 an hour for something that doesn't work! They view it as an investment.

If I lived in an 11+ area I would set up as a tutor, it is easy money!

To be fair, I think most people with children at selective schools do believe that preparation for exams is necessary, hence all the tutoring.

It is necessary these days merrymouse! If you have a very bright child they are still going to be beaten by the very bright child who has been prepared. It is a competition. You wouldn't go into a sporting one without training. Life has changed, in my day you just did a few practice tests and it was far fairer. Money buys a grammar school place today. Of course parents are happy to spend hundreds on a tutor because it saves thousands on private education. It is an investment.

You know that and I know that- but these threads are always full of "of course it's a level playing field" "tutoring makes no difference- anyone can get in if they're clever enough......"

These are the people who also studiously ignore the 20% disparity between children on FSM at grammar schools and the surrounding population.......

State primary children are up against prep school children. One group receives no exam preparation, the other has NVR & VR tests weekly from 5yo.

Level playing field my arse.

Yes, I agree Satin, that is what I said in my post at 7.02. My point is that I think that grammar school parents (or even teachers) who claim that the tests are immune to tutoring are in a minority.

It's a bit like assuming that Mo Farah turns up at events and runs without training or the British Cycling Team members are just innately better at turning pedals than anybody in any other country.

Some parents claim they are immune to tutoring but teachers don't claim it. Some parents pretend they haven't used them. It gives me a wry smile when someone comes on MN and asks for a recommendation for an 11+ tutor. I think 'haven't they realised how competitive it is? They are not going to give names to a rival'!

Yes there is no level playing field as many kids in the better primary schools will be waaaaay better prepared so really perhaps marks should be deducted if you go to an Outstandaing,Good or private school in the same way there is birthday weighting.

To be perfectly honest tutoring for the 11+ is the least of my concerns re unfairness in education and I speak as a mother with dc sitting it who will cover the work he hasn't done at school myself due to tutors being waaaay out of my budget.

It isn't rocket science if you have a bright kid there is the Internet and how to do 11+ books.Nobody is excluded(even libraries have internet access).

The grammars in Birmingham have a free school rate between 1 and 15% ( from memory). The one grammar near 15 is highly unusual . Most grammars have a FSM rate about 2%.

Again from memory the FSM rate in this country is 21%.

"Yes there is no level playing field as many kids in the better primary schools will be waaaaay better prepared so really perhaps marks should be deducted if you go to an Outstandaing,Good or private school in the same way there is birthday weighting."

No you won't. State schools tend not to do VR and NVR practice...

I'm afraid the horrible truth about grammar schools......... The advantage comes by them walking into a classroom where everyone in that room is "into" education. Where no one wants to disrupt the lesson, waste time or cause trouble.

Is that so? If it is, it has certainly changed since I was at grammar school, or more recently (the last 15 years) when friends did PGCEs in Bucks Grammars. The inference I drew after hearing my friends stories was that clever children can think of clever ways to disrupt lessons.