withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

[outofthebox]

Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

It's not against your will if you have chosen the school

Teen- that doesn't fly when the RE is 51% in favor of christianity- it is not at all balanced... 51% in favor of 1 religion means subtly, that it is preferred and favored and kids do get that message especially if they are not of christian lineage. Can't really explain what it feels like to have a Christmas play vs a Holiday play that recognizes all holidays around that time of year or other aspects of atteding any school with a preferential religion.

i think happy- it is against ones will since all schools teach RE and have a broadly christian assembly.

But OP the flipside is that it teaches tolerance, in the main. It really isn't brainwashing, as our church attendance stats will attest. It isn't the same as in the States. I went to a C of E primary school where I played Moses and parted the Red Sea made up of Muslims, Jews, Atheist and Christians. There was even a Druid.

If all you like about the UK is that it is a convenient transport hub, you are truly missing out. I love that I grew up here and not the States. The whole world is here, but without the nationalism and political stiffness of the states.

Dip your toe in. Really. It is great here.

Children can stay in the school hall during assemblies without actively participating, if they want - they don't have to sing or pray. No one tries to force them to believe, and they are certainly free to declare that they are atheists. It really is not like attending a church service.

Can I say again, why don't you go and sit in on a few assemblies to see what they are like?

I seriously don't know what all of the objectors here would do in the reverse situation where you sent your child to an American state school since RE is not taught and there are no assemblies... would you object?

OutOfTheBox,

You are not going to get what you want from this thread because the school has zero obligation to accommodate you (as well as the fact that you sound horribly pushy).

Firstly, I am Jewish by descent but agnostic by religion. I went to a catholic prep school, attended RE, even the odd mass. Guess what? I made my own mind up, but enjoyed the education which, as someone above has said, is good general English Lit, even if you reject the faith bit. I am now (still agnostic) married to a practicing Christian. By a bizarre quirk of fate, our children will be going to a local Jewish school because it will be a good school and convenient to us. My wife has no objection to our children learning Hebrew or going to Jewish prayers (although we may revise this later). We have confidence in our children in finding their own way towards a faith (or non faith) which suits them, guided by a variety of influences.

Finally, private schools can (pretty much) do what they like. There are more applicants than places to every good private school. The only "right" that you can "enforce" is to send your children somewhere else.

My only tip, given your attitude, is that private schools are quite responsive to substantial financial donations. If you are able to build a new facility or donate enough to finance a few bursaries/scholarships (think £100k +), I suspect your whims may be accommodated.

Well it's been a long time since I read anything as ridiculous as this OP!

You send your kid to a CHRISTIAN school, but you are objecting to the Christianity bit?!

For goodness sake get over yourself love and chill out - you are in England now.

As other posters have said, it's not normal to withdraw DCs from assembly and RE, it would just cause upset.

I have helped a school which had JW pupils and they were withdrawn from assembly and RE. Some of their parents came in and taught/supervised them.

It was an appalling idea, their DCs were isolated from their peers and the little girl in our class was in tears at not being able to join in with Christmas activities.

I'm an Atheist and religion everywhere drives me nuts, but that's Britain. There is wishy washy Christianity woven into every thread of society. It immunises us against evangelical beliefs and underpins our liberal society.

OP what are you afraid will happen if your child hears prayers or religious singing?

If I sent my DCs to an American state school with no RE and no assemblies, I would be just as content as sending them to a British state school that does teach RE and have slightly religious assemblies.

I like to think that, as a parent, I am the primary moral influence in my child's life.

I seriously don't know what all of the objectors here would do in the reverse situation where you sent your child to an American state school since RE is not taught and there are no assemblies... would you object?

Why on earth would we? We'd take up the schooling offered, as offered, and experience it as part of getting to know and understand the culture we would be living in.

Which is basically all that anyone has suggested that you do.

exexpat- a headteacher would let me sit in on an assembly? I didn't even know I could ask...

Ya know, I went to check out the local hebrew school to enroll my son in for afterschool for cultural reasons- and I couldn't do it! Same issues with prayers, bloody torah stories etc.... so difficult.

Damn those jewish school and their, relgious stuff

Speaking as a child who was withdrawn from assemblies/RE lesson in primary school, there's no way i would subject my own child to this. I remember being made to sit in silence with just a handful of others and missing out on memorable presentations/shows because of it.

My DC go to a broadly Christian school and readily join in despite the fact that i am an atheist. I teach them at home that they should respect other people religions/befiefs but that they should make up their own minds as to what they believe in.

There are a number of children at their school who are Jewish/Muslim and who will go to the assemblies but not bow their heads in prayer or join in with the hymns, as there are parents who attend various occasions and do likewise.

I understand that you don't want your child brainwashed into being a Christian but don't you feel that you imposing your views on him is not much better?

Give him the chance to learn and he will find his own path.

OP - I don't share your wish to live a life completely free of religion, but I do understand it. So I am still struggling to comprehend why you opted to send your child to a Christian school when the vast majority of private schools in the UK have no religious affiliation. Perhaps your error was in assuming the UK is like the USA - in significant ways, it isn't. Or perhaps your error was in not appreciating why private schools are often termed independent schools - they are independent of government control and most education legislation does not apply to them.

Essentially, what you are trying to do now is to renegotiate the contract between you and the school for the education if your child. The headers her sounds as if she is open to that and I hope you can find a mutually acceptable solution. If not, you may do better in a state school - even in a C of E school - where you will have statutory rights, however you choose to enforce them.

Did you actually ask them if your DS could attend Hebrew School, without the annoying religious bit?

Honestly?

We Brits don't make a big deal of religion. We have a 'live and let live' approach. Chillax!

Which Brits? Cromwell? Northern Ireland? Partition? The Exclusion of Jews from England and Wales?

Op, I do have experience of children being withdrawn from RE. My ex had to sit outside the classroom door during RE/Prayers/whatever. It made him feel different - but this was many years ago (I'm old), his father had escaped the Holocaust, he already knew he was different.

exexpat, I find your statement about 'only extreme/fringe religious groups' most insulting.

This did worry me when my children started school. I was lucky - that school had no prayers to withdraw them from. Luckily, many state primaries tacitly ignore the 'broadly Christian' in the Education Act.

But Op, you won't get much sympathy if you choose a private CE school then complain about religion!

littlestressy, I wish all teachers were as respectful as you. I also have experience of a young child asking questions about the Nativity play and being told 'Jesus is the son of God'. Not, 'some people think Jesus is the son of God'.

OTOH, if only some people believe Jesus is the son of God, then why are we doing a Nativity play? Try explaining it to a five-year-old! There is no legal separation of church and state here. I wish there were. The law has yet to catch up with the reality of a multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-religious society.

You have chosen a private Christian school which is under no obligation to allow you to withdraw your child from anything. They are under no obligation to provide your child with extra tuition at a time of your choosing. You chose that school. You could choose a state school and they would be under obligation to let your dc withdraw from assembly but you didn't so you can't now pull the 'against your will' card.

All school teach RE. It's considered to be important in the UK to understand where people are coming from. We also have lots of nice picture and books and stuff that would be baffling without a basic foundation in religion generally and Christianity specifically.

What OldBeanbagz said.

Mixing doesn't mean assimilating. Britain is diverse and liberal, so you will be accepted as long as you accept others, which sadly you are not doing.

I'll say it again: you are missing out. And so is your child.

If RE were not taught at school, I would do my best to give my children a reasonable understanding of all the main religions, using books, the Internet, news stories etc. in fact I pretty much do this anyway - we have several children's books about religion in the house, despite being atheists - but the school RE teacher probably knows a lot more about it than I do, and they also get trips to mosques, synagogues, gurdwaras etc. Do you really not want your children to know anything about religion?

I wonder, if there were RE lessons in US schools, could it have prevented incidents like the ones where turban-wearing Sikhs were murdered in the wake of 9-11 because ignorant mobs thought they were Muslim?

OP - the difference between UK and US culture regarding religion is enormous, and I think this is why you are facing confusion. In most of England at least, apathetic agnostics or atheists are the vast majority, even though many might say they are Christians, meaning that the religious place they never bother going to is a church rather than a synagogue or mosque.

So someone in your position comes across as someone in the majority wanting special treatment, because in this culture, the minimal amount of religion in most Christian schools (private or state) is viewed only as a tradition that no-one expects you to believe. Refusing to let a child be in a nativity play sounds just as odd as refusing to let them act in say the Jungle Book because animals can't really talk!

Many adult UK atheists view school religious content as inoculation against religion - it's not really on the radar even of organisations like the British Humanist Association, who campaign against religious discrimination in school admissions. If I was raising my family in somewhere in the US where religion got accepted in the public schools, I would feel exactly as you do (I'm technically American), but here it's not an issue for me. I don't know of anyone who's ever opted out of school assembly other than some Jehovah's Witnesses - all non- Christians just sit quietly and ignore.

And Christmas/New Year's is more like Thanksgiving and secular for most people - including many Jews and Muslims judging by ads for kosher and halal turkeys and local teens in hijab with Santa hats...

Where on earth are you, OP, that all your school choices are affiliated to a religion?

Have you looked at local community schools?

By the way, I find your putting 'bloody' before Torah very rude. Have you no respect for anyone else's views?

I think that your comment about 'A 4 year should be able to say the don't believe in God and be respected' actually highlights your lack of understanding of a british school.

If you asked a group of kids, many of them would say they didn't believe in God. The teacher may even tell the children that he/she doesn't believe in God.

Most of the people on this thread are NOT christians. Most of them have pointed out that they are atheists.

Many of them would not blink an eye if their kids were at an American school with no religion.

You talk about the nativity play and nothing else about the other celebrations at that time of year.
In dcs school they did a nativity, they also celebrated Hannukah, and Diwali, and when Eid falls in December, Eid as well. You seem to see the christian stuff, and not notice the rest
(or maybe that is because you are at a christian school, which may well choose not to do the rest as it isn't obliged to, being a private school...)

Larry- yes I'm admittedly pushy... hey think New Yorker- no prob there. Yes I get now that the private school doesn't have to do anything- learned it on this thread.

Bugger- yes well religion is personal not cultural. Although I suppose an argument can be made that the Queen is the head of British culture which centers around her religion and is therefore cultural in that way. Just want to avoid my son being bullied for being a strict atheist and only saying what he believes, believes what he is saying etc. I'd be quite hypocritical if I just went with the flow like that...

see atheist.org
American Atheists fights to protect the absolute separation of religion from government and raise the profile of atheism in the public discourse.

Since 1963, American Atheists has been taking the principled and uncompromising position that our government should give no special treatment or preference to religious belief. Through lawsuits, innovative public relations campaigns, and education, we are working to normalize atheism and allow more and more people to set aside religious belief and superstition.