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Extra time in exams - rules changing?

121 replies

Sunhasgothishaton · 15/07/2013 20:43

I've been told that getting extra time in exams is changing in September, and it will be a lot harder/tighter to get extra time.

My ds has dyslexia and has extra time. I was told unless he scores less than 85 on any of the standard scores he won't get the extra time but he scored 92.

Does anyone have any advice/info on this?

OP posts:
RussiansOnTheSpree · 07/08/2013 09:30

But I haven't made any ludicrous and evidently ignorant statements about SEN kids in this thread. And you have.

You sound very bitter to me. I wonder what the San is for your resentment of bright kids with SEN issues?

RussiansOnTheSpree · 07/08/2013 09:32

Reason - don't know whether to blame the iPad or my typing.

Incidentally - a comment like that only bites if (a) the recipient knows in their heart that it's true (b) the person making the comment is someone credible. Grin

ukjess · 07/08/2013 09:39

what statement was ludicrous?

and are you now admitting it was an insult?

what statement is bitter? or resentful?

I would imagine any person would be offended by the insult in question.

(not that I am especially bothered- the internet can be an abusive place as recent TV stories about twitter etc have demonstrated)

RussiansOnTheSpree · 07/08/2013 09:44

Your initial contribution to this thread - the one to which copthall and others took exception - was ludicrous.

Copthall's response was not an insult. It was an accurate evaluation of the available information. If in fact you are a lovely person who is neither ignorant nor bitter then perhaps you should have reflected your real personality in your initial post. However the likelihood if this being the case is, I think, small to vanishing.

Your attitude towards bright kids with SEN issues appears to be very bitter. Why are you so bitter, hmm?

The fact that you have continued picking away at this in an attempt to derail a thread about an important issue is also rather telling.

Your reading comprehension is as poor as your knowledge of SEN issues.

NoComet · 07/08/2013 09:48

8 O'levels not 10 and that's part of why, I didn't have to do French or Welsh, both of which I'm totally useless at.

My difficulties are mild, majorly I cannot spell and I read slower and less accurately than DH and DD2, but still well within the normal range.

Other than that I guess I use the same coping stratifies as DD1, but to a lesser degree than she has to.

We are both genetically clever, that is to say we get good IQ scores. We have both learnt to use this to make sure we follow the context of what we read. We make sure we understand Science and Geography and pull history together into a coherent (that took a lot of spelling attempts) story. To a certain extent, awful short term memory is useful, you simply can't remember random facts.

DD1 has been much better taught than I was, she does this in a formal way, drawing mind maps and writing key facts on record cards. She practices difficult topics on bite size too.

I just explained things to my BF on the bus.

Actually that's a very good way of learning and I do try and chat to her about science etc. DH does too, but he tends to do all the talking and go way off syllabus.

Lastly good exam technique.

  1. read and reread the question and the whole exam. Make a note of every scrap of information and useful spelling contained within.

2)choose your questions very carefully, do those that you can do quickly first and leave waffly ones to last. Bullet points and labeled diagrams are your friends (lots if info down very quick).

  1. look at the number of marks for questions make sure you do the ones that have lots of marks.

  2. blank paper doesn't get marks, when in doubt scribble something.

  3. proof. I don't it panics me, but DD1 has to as her English can get much more muddled.

RussiansOnTheSpree · 07/08/2013 09:49

Apropos of absolutely nothing I'm suddenly reminded of a ghastly competitive mother who kicked up a real fuss in primary school when Dd1 was allowed extra time and a separate room for her discretionary (Y5) SATs. She could not understand how the clear top of the year child could possibly need 'extra help' and very loudly and pointedly speculated in the playground that the only reason dd1 was doing so well was that she was 'teachers pet' and was 'being allowed to cheat' to kee her top of the tree.

Meanwhile in another part of the playground another competitive mother was whining about the fact that she'd see dd1 around the school and she was clearly not at all intelligent - couldnt even walk through a door properly - so how come she was always on the top table and G&T for everything, this couldn't be right, hadn't the teachers seen her?

True story. And repeated so often.

I can't think what is reminding me about those incidents this morning.

ukjess · 07/08/2013 09:49

again- what specific bit was ludicrous?

that I agree with the DfE?
that I agree with a number of experienced teachers?

If you dont mind someone saying you "shouldnt be anywhere near kids' then fine- its not an insult.

I rather think most people would beg to differ though.

again, what statement is bitter?

RussiansOnTheSpree · 07/08/2013 09:50

starball I think she muddled us up.

NoComet · 07/08/2013 09:59

For DD1 extra time is hugely valuable because she has to reread more carefully than me, copy down letter by letter from the paper or have multiple attempts at far more spellings than me, to get something the examiner can get,

Her English is far worse, she misses bits and changes tenses without realising, so she has to proof and correct.

Modern exams are short. I stole time from easy questions to scour the exam paper for spellings and question rereading time, this is easy in a 3hr exam, but not in an hour.

ukjess · 07/08/2013 10:02

StarBallBunny,
thanks- Im a big fan of mind maps and cards.

I always found girls took to them but boys very resistant- but if you did persuade them they worked well.

your point 1) is critical though its so difficult to get kids to follow this advice. I still used to see my a-level kids start writing furiously 10seconds into an exam... sigh

ps and Bitesize is fantastic- they need to develop that idea more

pps have you tried using mnemonics to recall certain facts? I once had an SEN kid with 20 rhymes for various topics and subjects- she swore by it

NoComet · 07/08/2013 10:03

Probably, but I muddle everyone up.

ukjess · 07/08/2013 10:05

starball,
because they are deleting modular exams (hurrah) I think the terminal exams will be longer now- may be helpful.

cornypepper · 07/08/2013 10:27

'Pepper- so you are saying only people with a full qualification to assess AA can be involved in this debate? So this eliminates non qualified children, parents and teachers from having an opinion? Gosh you are very exclusive.'

I don't think anyone else has stated that most exam access arrangements are unnecessary.

Access arrangements are a 'reasonable adjustment.' The equality act 2010 states that schools must make reasonable adjustments for students with SEN. They are also supposed to reflect a child's usual way of working and schools are required to have evidence on file of this to show to inspectors.

If your SENCO friend is questioning the validity of the majority of access arrangements in her school then she is not doing her job very well.

ukjess · 07/08/2013 10:43

so only views that mirror yours are allowed in the debate?- double gosh- another layer of exclusivity...

Yes, I along with many other experienced teachers think some access arrangements are often excessive.

That of course also indicates they think some are entirely appropriate and deserved.

And the word 'reasonable' is of course going to reflect subjective and human judgments on behalf of teachers and assessors.

which makes it the perfect topic for a debate does it not?

and what a stilted debate it would be if there was no variance of opinion or experience.

cornypepper · 07/08/2013 10:51

'Yes, I along with many other experienced teachers think some access arrangements are often excessive.'

you can think what you like but as you aren't qualified to administer for access arrangements your opinion isn't relevant to parents who are looking for advice on this subject.
You seem to think that 'parents go mad asking for everything' when that's not at all how it works in reality. If that has happened in your friend's school then something has gone very wrong.

'And the word 'reasonable' is of course going to reflect subjective and human judgments on behalf of teachers and assessors.'

Is this in response to the term 'reasonable adjustments' which is used in the equality act?
An access arrangement is a reasonable adjustment. That's pretty clear I think.

Copthallresident · 07/08/2013 11:06

ukjess you are right, russians and I are bound to feel a little heated on this topic since we have ourselves coped with school, university and careers in a time when it wasn't acknowledged that you could be bright but still have learning difficulties. Success has come to us both, and many others,but not without cost to our confidence and self esteem since whilst we have the cognitive ability and particular strengths in creativity and analysis we are also capable of appearing what society defines as being stupid especially, in my case, when it comes to the speed with which I arrive at ideas and analysis and the organisational and literacy skills that some see as a mark of efficiency, competency, or whatever. We both have children who thankfully have a diagnosis and understand their own strengths and weaknesses and have been helped with coping strategies (where they haven't developed them themselves) but they face a far more difficult world than we did. I could mess up my O levels, find a way to achieve good enough A levels to meet my BCC offer to read History at a Russell Group university and then be in a position to embark on a successful career and further academic achievement (including achieving distinctions in an MBA and MA) but my DDs face having to achieve As to get on a good course at a good university. Thankfully one is through the process and flying in her Science degree but for the other I am already losing sleep over what fate has in store for her on the 15th in these days of Gove's deflationary dystopia. She has the coping strategies and fully understands that being Dyslexic and Dyspraxic means having to work harder and smarter, it is not an excuse, but still with one shot in a three hour exam there are so many ways she may have been tripped up by her poor processing skills, her working memory, her disorganisation, her slow speed of reading and writing, and her anxiety (in spite of counselling and hypnotherapy) and have failed to achieve the A she is perfectly capable of, even with. 25% extra time (which believe me she uses to the full). She has already demonstrated her ability in her course work (which thank goodness still exists in her A level courses, because presumably they understand that the skills involved are absolutely essential for success at university, and the basis of most assessment there, and hello, there is software that easily spots plagiarism) and her EPQ.

1 in 10 people have a Specific Learning Difficulty regardless of ability. Of course there has to be definition of how much and which support they get and on what basis. Yes 25% extra time doesn't compensate for the speed of working for students like my DD. However after years in which the support was put in place for pupils like my DD based on what was recommended by experts we are now facing a world in which the D of E is taking things backwards, not based on sound evidence and the advice of the experts but based on the sort of prejudice and opinion that would normally only qualify to appear in an article in the Daily Mail. Read the link I gave, OFQUAL accept they are discriminating, they are just under pressure to reduce numbers.

For every anecdote you can give me of escalating numbers getting unjustified extra time I can quote all the parents I know who have struggled to get any support in the state system for any DC who is able to achieve above the average, regardless of their potential to achieve better given the right support, there is thread after thread on the subject within Mumsnet. I could also quote the teacher responsible for SEN at my DDs school who daily faces a challenge to persuade parents that their children have a SpLD, that it isn't a pejorative label, that it doesn't mean they are stupid, and to educate teachers at the school about the actual nature of SpLDs and counter all the stereotypes (eg my DDs English teacher telling her she was doing so much better and she was clearly cured Shock ) I can counter your assertion that too many people are getting unjustified support with an assertion that rising numbers getting support reflects increased awareness and better diagnosis. More DCs getting the support that Russians and I and many others would have greatly benefited from. That was the basis of my saying that I hope that with your prejudice and bias you are not allowed near a school age pupil, because I feel very strongly that pupils with SpLDs do deserve to have teachers who look at their potential and spot why it is they are not achieving it and do all they can to support them. If you are such a teacher then I apologise, but what you have posted on here suggests differently.

ukjess · 07/08/2013 11:12
  • plenty of people on this thread are not qualified in the way you describe- they are still entitled to their opinions and contributions. Just because you are qualified doesnt mean that only you get to post.
  • 'Parents asking for everything' isnt just isolated to one school- far from it. This is a problem in quite a few London schools. Something indeed has gone wrong...
  • only if you agree its 'reasonable' for a specific case! A panel of experts, students, parents and teachers would not always agree in every single case when presented with all the evidence- that I hope is also pretty clear.
cornypepper · 07/08/2013 11:16

it's not a case of parents asking for access arrangements though...each access arrangement has to be administered in line with JCQ regulations and signed off by a professional qualified to assess.
If parents are requesting access arrangements and the child is then assessed by a qualified professional as requiring that access arrangement, without the school realising that the child had that particular area of need, then the school are at fault - not the system.

elastamum · 07/08/2013 11:16

I am just navigating this issue for DS1 who is in the 99th percentile for verbal IQ but has massive discrepancies in his processing speed and writing / spelling. But because he is so bright, he isnt far below average and unless the school build a case for him, will no longer get extra time. The school have not given him extra time in his last set of end of year exams as they wanted to see how he would get on.

The school (independant) think he should be supported and are gathering evidence to make a case for him, but we have no idea what will happen. He is going down the maths, science, non essay route for GCSE, but it slightly irks me that a child who is top of his year for maths and physics and in set 4 for english can be considered not to have a problem!

One thing we have done is encouraged him to write poems not essays for english as his use of language is good, and for him less is more.

Apart from lack of speed, his biggest issue in english, is that he has a great understanding of language and massive volcabuary, but he cant spell many of the words!

kitchendiner · 07/08/2013 11:43

Elastamum I would suggest that Set 4 might not be the right set for a DS who has verbal IQ in the top 1%. Very similar to my DS who has just worked his way up from 3rd to top set in "good" comp. He too has "great understanding of language, massive vocabulary but cannot spell. I think of my DS's talents AND deficits as being in English which is tricky and previous teachers have failed to "get it". Many famous writers have been dyslexic - it's about a flair for language rather than spelling.

ukjess · 07/08/2013 11:47

Copthall Resident-
I dont doubt what you say about some deserving cases not getting support and disbelieving parents, under-informed teachers, better diagnosis rates etc etc. I have seen examples of what you describe myself over the years too.

I think most people understand your overarching point e.g. Stephen Hawking couldn't pass a Physics exam today but he's not a bad Scientist to put it mildy.

But I hope in turn, you also will respect the other points and observations I made too in good faith.

Whatever system we have, an expert or parent can claim discrimination, because the line is drawn somewhere. So someone doesn't get what they want. And what of the % ET proportionality I mentioned earlier? Difficult isn't it?

It is a fact of life that resources and priveldges are limited. If certain resources/privileges are spread too thin and thin, perhaps due to lower threshold, then the most deserving cases suffer.

I spent my professional life supporting kids from the most able to the most challenged including those with mental and physical disabilities. I don't feel I should have to justify myself in terms of my efficacy or altruism.

Nor do I think I am more biased or prejudiced than you or Russian. Someone having a different opinion to you doesnt make them biased, prejudiced or anything else.

Otherwise I could suddenly announce that because you feel the way you do, you shouldnt be allowed to have kids! Because kids deserve to have parents that ... etc etc..

It would be an unnecessary and outrageous insult without merit. It wouldnt even occur to me to say that to you or anyone else and never would.

ukjess · 07/08/2013 11:49

sorry for spelling error and I meant 'thin and widely'

Copthallresident · 07/08/2013 12:03

ukjess you are still not addressing the issue. How can it be right to impose new regulations that the experts say are scientifically unsound and that even the regulatory body acknowledges are discriminatory? I don't doubt that all processes need to evolve and improve but that isn't what has happened here. Those parents who push for help for less able pupils who perhaps don't merit it have actually had their hands strengthened. The only Pupils who are suffering are those who are brighter, and they face blanket discrimination, whether they deserve it or not. How can you support that?

Hopefully elastamum behind the scenes the exam boards are doing their best to approve deserving cases based on additional evidence, and try and correct the unfairness.

I would also add that in the experience of my Dd and at my own university (I am back in academia, and dyslexics are very over represented amongst academic historians Smile) the support given to those with SpLDs is amazing, very thorough assessment, and considerable expertise in how to provide support. World's away from what is happening in schools.

ukjess · 07/08/2013 12:15

Pepper,
From a variety of sources I have heard of schools that wanted to assess but parents objected.

I also have heard from the same sources that some parents insist on assessments against the school advice.

In some cases the parents succeed, sometimes not. This means the school was sometimes correct and when not, was surprised by the successful application.

You may have heard a few years ago of the issue of private assessors boosting incomes through over-diagnosis. (not for AA but certain conditions)

This is a controversial issue within education (not just the Daily mail etc) and many experts in the field have dissenting views.

Either way, schools are often battling parents in both directions. Its certainly common for teachers to be surprised that some students are qualified for ET because in their usual class tests the kids coped fine, often finished well in time and getting scores is keeping with their FFT estimation. (and there are the kids that they could clearly see required ET too).

Its also common for kids not to want the ET - though that can be for a variety of reasons- sometimes they should have it but they dont like the self perceived label.

Copthallresident · 07/08/2013 12:20

I would also add that my comment originates in the life long damage done by teachers who really shouldn't have been allowed near school age pupils, like the one who told my parents " the trouble with you middle class parents is that you can't accept when your child is stupid" it took many years for my brother who has severe dyslexia to gain any sort of confidence after it was completely destroyed in the school system. He got there in the end though, he is on the board of a Europe wide engineering company. Sadly those attitudes still exist and the direction of recent regulatory changes has been dictated by them.

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